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Author Topic: 100,000 beekeeper petition drive  (Read 6579 times)
bee-nuts
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« Reply #60 on: February 24, 2011, 05:57:50 PM »

To me (no offense Bjorn) the petition seems like someone going into the office at work angry about something but does not want anything resolved.

Its your petition so do what you like with it Bjorn but I think if you look at some of the arguments here you find in them good content for the petition.  We know wildlife is being killed by agriculture, we know bees are dieing, we know this, and we know that.  It is these things that need to be addressed, causes found, solutions developed, and these could be the demands made.

One thing that disturbs me is clothianidin use apparently had no real competent studies done before or after it was given wide spread application rights.  Werther it is or is not a cause for CCD is not the point but its potential risks to bees and other insects and other life should never be allowed to be repeated with other pesticides that come to the market.  All pesticides in use should be investigated and re-evaluated if they have similar lack of research.  We all (beekeepers and the general public) could benefit from a long term research program that has funding for looking into problems that are out there with our current system of regulating pesticides, looking into wildlife losses and seeking answers, and finding causes and reporting them to the public.  I think that would be a great first step, getting a group who at least has the funding to find and report problems and seek the publics interest for solution.

Maybe Im wrong, but I just dont see any personal drive to sign it.  I think with the amount of folks who have already made objection, it would be wise to change content.  If you were going to market something, you would have to listen to the feedback given here and change the content to achieve your ultimate goal of attracting as much positive feedback before running your add.

My two pennies
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Acebird
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« Reply #61 on: February 24, 2011, 09:09:37 PM »

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We all (beekeepers and the general public) could benefit from a long term research program that has funding for looking into problems that are out there with our current system of regulating pesticides,

You will never be able to outspend the people that have influence.  The influence is what determines the result of the research.
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Bee-Bop
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« Reply #62 on: February 24, 2011, 09:29:45 PM »

Actually I'm more interested in WHO does the RESEARCH work for the MEDICINE you and I both take !

Anyone care to guess WHO ??

A clue, it isn't the FDA !!

Bee-Bop
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T Beek
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« Reply #63 on: February 25, 2011, 07:13:29 AM »

Its largely the manufacturers/profiteers who are allowed to do their own research (with assisted tax dollars).

thomas
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« Reply #64 on: February 25, 2011, 05:05:19 PM »

I am not aware of any tax dollars going to pharmaceuticals unless it is for Aids, or stem cell research but Thomas is correct for the rest of the drugs.  The company does all the testing and presents the findings to the FDA for approval.  I will say the FDA employees are no dummies.  I won't say money doesn't influence the FDA's decisions.  Especially if there is federal politics going on.
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kathyp
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« Reply #65 on: February 25, 2011, 05:12:44 PM »

you are correct.  it's not the FDA.  for all the drugs in development, very few make it though the testing process and FDA approval.  the drug companies do some initial testing, but testing is done by independent companies, in drug trials that are not only independent, but blind, and it takes many years.  it's not until all forms of testing are done that all results are put before the FDA for analysis.  it is the process of getting drugs before the FDA and through the approval system that makes them so very expensive.  companies spend billions and many years, developing and testing a drug, only to have FDA not approve it.  this is more the norm than the exception. 

where there is more of a problem is with university grants from government.  there you really do have a one hand washes the other relationship. 
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« Reply #66 on: February 25, 2011, 05:22:54 PM »

The difference being that universities stay a float with grants and are also providing an education, or service if you will(not that I'm defending the practice, I'm not), while BIG Pharma makes billions in profits (that serve "who" again? Wink Certainly not me or you rolleyes).

thomas
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Bee-Bop
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« Reply #67 on: February 25, 2011, 05:24:56 PM »

you are correct.  it's not the FDA. 

where there is more of a problem is with university grants from government.  there you really do have a one hand washes the other relationship. 

Yes and many drugs are developed at the university's with tax dollar grants.
Then Guess What, the University's  SELL these patents to Drug Co., most colleges even retain a percentage of ownership.

Bee-Bop
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« Reply #68 on: February 25, 2011, 06:03:28 PM »

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while BIG Pharma makes billions in profits


Private universities are big businesses with huge profits.
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kathyp
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« Reply #69 on: February 25, 2011, 06:24:58 PM »

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(that serve "who" again?  Certainly not me or you ).

depends...i take it you don't own any stock?  they pay dividends to investors.  they are a better and better investment as the population ages.  you don't take any meds?  that's what keeps most of us ticking  grin 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #70 on: February 25, 2011, 06:34:42 PM »

Acebird; The operative word is "private"

KathyP; wouldn't think of it, heaven forbid Wink breathing is what keeps me ticking

thomas
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« Reply #71 on: February 25, 2011, 06:50:03 PM »

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you don't take any meds?  that's what keeps most of us ticking   


No I don't.  Unfortunately, that is what our society has come to.  Take this pill for this and then six others to prevent the side affects.  If you are living on pills you are ticking all right just like a time bomb.  Good health is simple, diet and exercise.  You are what you eat.
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BjornBee
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« Reply #72 on: February 25, 2011, 07:24:15 PM »

That explains it.... grin
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« Reply #73 on: February 25, 2011, 07:35:02 PM »

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Good health is simple, diet and exercise.


simple things for simple....how does  that go?  grin
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #74 on: February 25, 2011, 07:48:56 PM »

If you take profit away from modernizing medicine,you will soon see an end to cures.
Who wants to invest a lot of money with no hope for returns?

 Nobody ever mentions when a pharmaceutical invests 100 million on research and loses when it is a dud.They only mention major profits.

 Diet and exercise is not a cure all ailments. Just ask any one with cancer or rheumatoid arthritis. I knew a guy who ran regularly and ate much better than I did( health food wise) and died very young.If it was just diet and exercise, he should have been sittig here typing and I should have met the maker.

Then again,what has this got to do with the petition drive?
  
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Cascadebee
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« Reply #75 on: February 25, 2011, 07:55:46 PM »

If we beeks were serious about increasing our influence on how we are treated by the government regulators, we would hire a lobbyist to go to DC and get a piece of the next farm bill. Last cycle through vocal complaining and lobbying specialty crops grabbed a chunk of the cash that would have gone to midwest corn subsidies. They didn't want subsidies, they asked for research funds. The farm bill is a stupid game, but one we could play to our advantage if there were a united front of beekeepers. Big money for research proposed by bee-nuts and others. IMO a better use of taxpayer funds than subsidizing the conversion of oil into crap food and the ultimate farce, ethanol.


  
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T Beek
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« Reply #76 on: February 26, 2011, 07:32:45 AM »

Buzzbee; R U kidding?  Saulk neither wanted nor sought "profit" for his work eliminating polio (or was it small pox?).

What has Big Pharma cured?  Gimmi one example.  Its too profitable to "treat" illness.  Not much profit at all in curing any (see cancer).  Pharma rarely uses "their" $ for research.  When was the last time Big Pharma "lost' millions???  I'd really like to know that.

It appears that some are saying "what's the point of taking care of ouselves when a pill will come along and cure our ills" do I have that right?  Now that is what I call having faith.

Cascadebee:  It doesn't matter how serious we as beekeepers get as long as plutocratic corporatism (formerly known as facisim) rules this land.  All we can do (until its declared illegal) is slow them down, but at least its something  Wink  Even if all beeks in the world got together and hired a lobbiest, do you think we could compete with the profiteers?  Really?

thomas
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« Reply #77 on: February 26, 2011, 08:11:40 AM »

Not all modern medicine is pills.And yes there is examples of discoveries by small time individuals.
But when it comes time to develop things like MRI,microsurgery equipment and the like,it is not being built in the back yard. And if it was,the individual scientist would never have the resources without investment to satisfy even the "government: regulations let alone build and market such devices. I guess I'll take my chances on modern medicine. You do what you like. It's our personal choice.
  And I would feel safe to assume since more people come to the US for serious medical problems ,rather than leave here to go somewhere else,it's because of all  the backwoods practitioners here.
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T Beek
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« Reply #78 on: February 26, 2011, 09:07:18 AM »

Its a myth perpetuated by the "industry" that people from all over the world come to America for health care (perhaps Kings, Queens and the like, cuz they can afford it) when in fact, many Americans are actually going to places like Singapore and India for heart surgeries (an acquaintance from our area had heart surgery in Thailand two years ago for 1/10Th the cost, including travel!!) and other major procedures that would've put them into bankruptcy if performed right here in the US.

Americans are still forced to buy many medications from Mexico (oh boy) or Canada because we refuse to take obscene profits out of the equation.

We've got several Canadian friends and NONE (as yet) wants to come here for medical care despite all the rhetoric.  When they do come for visits, they make sure they are carrying some travel health Insurance.  The biggest nightmare being that they might get sick or hurt while traveling the US and go home owing tens of thousands of dollars. 

On the other hand, when I got sick and was hospitalized for three days in Canada a few years ago, my bill was under a thousand dollars and they gave me up to two years to pay it back with NO INTEREST or penalty added (and not ONE nasty phone call or letter).  And I was treated like a King.

I don't know how we got on this topic (it wasn't me), but MY OPINION is that profiting off sick people should be illegal, like it is in MOST 'developed' Countries and the sooner we get there the better off we'll all be.  Let the health care profiteers get real jobs in....health care, they already know the lingo grin  They can go from making obscene profit (by denying health care) to helping people instead, what a concept cool

Right now, unless you're a small business, 1.45% of your income goes to medicare (surprise, no wonder its in trouble), doubled if you own a business.  I've been saying for years, that I'd gladly pay double or triple that to have medicare for EVERYONE,  how bout you??  That sentiment scares the profiteers more than anything, ya know?

Fortunately (or not, depending on individual perspective) for me, as a disabled veteran, my medical needs will be taken care of (I think that's called socialism Wink an accepted practice for some, so far).  But I'd give up VA health care in a heartbeat, in exchange for medicare for everyone Smiley, but that's just me.

Talk about opening a can of worms, who started this?Huh

thomas
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Acebird
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« Reply #79 on: February 26, 2011, 09:11:23 AM »

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Its too profitable to "treat" illness.  Not much profit at all in curing any (see cancer). 


Bingo! Bingo! Bingo!

Quote
Even if all beeks in the world got together and hired a lobbiest, do you think we could compete with the profiteers?  Really?

Absolutely not, you can't play a money game with big money.

The long term solution is to educate our young.  You have to do that on their terms.  Social media...
We are not going to revolt, only the young will.
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