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Author Topic: Joe Republican  (Read 5449 times)
thebalvenie
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Vote Ron Paul!!!!!!!!!!!!!


« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2011, 10:18:30 AM »

My education was paid for by crawling through the jungles of Nam.  I don't have medical ins.  I pay for what my VA doesn't furnish. I feel like I paid dearly for the part VA pays.
So you would recommend that people should not volunteer for military service because you didn't get a good deal on your government paid education and health care?

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You can keep your socialism.
Because you already have your socialism.  


actually, no...we don't have socialism...yet...we have corporatism and economic fascism
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beek4018
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« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2011, 10:24:58 AM »

Kathy - You really don't have a good answer for why the Conservatives haven't solved all of our money problems, or even proposed a truly workable alternative, now that they "hold the purse strings", do you?  Nope. Didn't think so.

Vtech - Let's be really clear on this.  We DO NOT have a free market system in this country. and haven't for well over a century.  If we did we'd get rid of things like subsidies for oil & gas drilling and exploration, agriculture subsidies, and trade tariffs.  But you know what?  The very bastions of capitalism that most conservatives think we should bend over and let have their way ( big companies) lobby their butts off to keep those things in place.  Why?  Because it's the only way they can compete.  It's the only way the overpaid executives can possibly keep their bonuses.  If we truly had a "free market" system in this country we'd get slaughtered by the Chinese.
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kathyp
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« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2011, 10:28:06 AM »

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Kathy - You really don't have a good answer for why the Conservatives haven't solved all of our money problems, or even proposed a truly workable alternative, now that they "hold the purse strings", do you?  Nope. Didn't think so.

i don't know what you want me to say.  your question seems provocative and with no point.  you do know that those in congress were just sworn in on the 3rd of January?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
iddee
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« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2011, 10:36:14 AM »

education and health care to all citizens is a far cry form total dependency. We have had public education for much longer than you or I can remember, but with minuscule taxes compared to today. Health care could be the same if certain ridiculous points were removed.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2011, 10:38:23 AM »

President Obama calls for co-operation between the parties in the house.

Meaning.... Do what the Democrats want.
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thebalvenie
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Vote Ron Paul!!!!!!!!!!!!!


« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2011, 10:39:44 AM »

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Kathy - You really don't have a good answer for why the Conservatives haven't solved all of our money problems, or even proposed a truly workable alternative, now that they "hold the purse strings", do you?  Nope. Didn't think so.

i don't know what you want me to say.  your question seems provocative and with no point.  you do know that those in congress were just sworn in on the 3rd of January?


i'm aware.....and i'm still not impressed.  at least the paul duo seem to be sticking to their guns and are consistent....
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kathyp
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« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2011, 11:04:08 AM »

you understand that the president just put out his budget and that the country has been functioning without a budget for over a year?  congress can't cut funding to programs that is done in a continuing resolution.  they can only get at programs that are on the budget.  until the president put out his budget plan, they had nothing to work with...or against.  the president gets to go first with this.  so no....between Monday and Wednesday, i didn't expect to see much action.....
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2011, 11:07:56 AM »


we spend more per student and have lower test scores than almost any other country in the world.  
We don't spend the most per student, at least not  in the public schools.   I lived in Sweden for 4 years.  They spend more per student and have much better results.  You are correct that there are factors other than money that also contribute to a good education.  Instilling a love of learning at an early age is a big part of success.  And encouraging self-discipline (which is totally different from externally imposed discipline) is another important factor.

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please define "fair tax rate".
As an example, a tax rate that results in the richest people having a disposable income of 30 times that of a minimum wage worker, scaled progressively from bottom to top.  And a middle class that has a disposable income of about 10 times the minimum wage.  In other words, I would like to see a tax rate that makes it easier to get to middle class status and harder to get super rich.  I know how hard most minimum wage workers have it, and I don't think anyone works hard enough or is smart enough to get more than 30 times the reward.   Especially since the wealthy could never amass or maintain their wealth without the work of those at the bottom.

I think current tax rates are too high on the middle class and too low on the rich.  So I'm saying that if the minimum wage worker has $10k in disposable income, the middle class should have $100k and the richest people should have $300k.  I don't believe in the myth that very high incomes encourage innovation.  I think people who are really innovative do it for the enjoyment of being creative.

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i think it would be fair to have a flat tax rate that everyone paid no matter income or source of income.  

Well, I guess we differ on this issue.  
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kathyp
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« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2011, 11:24:02 AM »

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As an example, a tax rate that results in the richest people having a disposable income of 30 times that of a minimum wage worker, scaled progressively from bottom to top.  And a middle class that has a disposable income of about 10 times the minimum wage.  In other words, I would like to see a tax rate that makes it easier to get to middle class status and harder to get super rich.  I know how hard most minimum wage workers have it, and I don't think anyone works hard enough or is smart enough to get more than 30 times the reward.   Especially since the wealthy could never amass or maintain their wealth without the work of those at the bottom.

so you believe in redistribution of wealth thorough the tax code?  and you don't think that those in lower incomes should contribute even though they use the majority of the services.  you think it's ok that 48% of the population pays no federal tax?  you think it's ok that the top 10% pays 70% of the taxes and the top 50% pays 97%? 

because why?  it's not fair to have rich people?

i don't have a problem with poor not paying taxes if you get rid of the social welfare programs.  as long as you expect me to pay for what they "need", i expect them to contribute, even if it just a little bit.

do you know why Habitat for Humanity requires the person getting the home to work on the home?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2011, 11:26:20 AM »

education and health care to all citizens is a far cry form total dependency. We have had public education for much longer than you or I can remember, but with minuscule taxes compared to today. Health care could be the same if certain ridiculous points were removed.
You and I may not be that far apart here.  I don't want total dependency either, but I know that a certain level of education and health care are necessary to even get in the game.   Middle class taxes (if you look at federal, state, and local) are pretty high.  But taxes on the rich are the lowest in the last 100 years.  

The highest federal marginal tax rate during the Eisenhower administration was 85%.  The highest marginal tax rate during the Nixon administration was 70%.  Today the highest marginal rate is 38%.   And in NC, the state income tax is capped at 7% regardless of income.  And more income today comes from capital gains which are taxed at 15%.  The rich have never had it so good.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2011, 11:37:10 AM by FRAMEshift » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2011, 11:34:11 AM »

  and you don't think that those in lower incomes should contribute even though they use the majority of the services.  you think it's ok that 48% of the population pays no federal tax?  you think it's ok that the top 10% pays 70% of the taxes and the top 50% pays 97%? 
grin  Kathy, the top 10% pay most of the taxes because they have most of the income.  They pay the most because they are getting most of the benefits of having a stable country, which is the biggest government service of all.   
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kathyp
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« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2011, 11:56:09 AM »

yet as top tax rates came down, revenue to govt  went up.  why?   because people were not being punished for production and fewer people felt the need to try to hide or shelter income. 

why do we have a capitol gains tax or an inheritance tax?  one punishes wise investment and the other just punishes.  both tax what has already been taxed.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
beek4018
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« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2011, 11:59:51 AM »

Why, yes, Kathy I do know they were just sworn in.  But you seemed to tar Obama ad the lefty Congress with responsibility for every fiscal issue the very second they took office with no notion of their having inherited certain problems.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2011, 12:08:30 PM »

In other words, I would like to see a tax rate that makes it easier to get to middle class status and harder to get super rich.  

I thought one got to middle class status through hard work.
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kathyp
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« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2011, 12:19:51 PM »

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But you seemed to tar Obama ad the lefty Congress with responsibility for every fiscal issue the very second they took office with no notion of their having inherited certain problems.

please point out where i have done that.

 
Quote
thought one got to middle class status through hard work.


sure never met anyone who got there through welfare!   grin
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2011, 12:36:43 PM »

yet as top tax rates came down, revenue to govt  went up.  why?   because people were not being punished for production and fewer people felt the need to try to hide or shelter income. 

why do we have a capitol gains tax or an inheritance tax?  one punishes wise investment and the other just punishes.  both tax what has already been taxed.
Good grief Kathy.   Revenue did not go up as rates fell.  That was the real lesson of the Reagan tax cuts and the Laffer curve.  In 1981, Reagan had the largest tax cut in US history on the theory that we were to the right of the peak on the Laffer curve... i.e. that revenue would rise as lower rates stimulated growth and rising tax revenues.  IT DID NOT WORK.  In 1983, Reagan presided over the largest tax INCREASE in US history.  I still remember seeing Reagan's Chief of Staff, James Baker, going on TV and telling corporate America that if they did not invest their tax cut windfall and generate more revenue.... they would see their tax cut revoked.  And that's exactly what happened.  All US economic growth since 1971 is a result of rising population.  There has not been an increase in the per capita GDP since then except briefly during the Clinton years.

Capital gains are transactional income.  Every dollar made in the market is lost by someone else, except for IPOs.  Taxes on cap gains are the cost of being able to do business in a stable economic system which is maintained by the government you are paying for with your taxes.  The question is why capital gains rates are so much lower than taxes on labor income. If hard work is the key to success in this country, the tax on labor should be less than the tax on capital.

The inheritance tax is a tax on unrealized capital gains.  The increased value of assets held for long periods is not taxed until the asset is sold.  If it is inherited and not sold, that capital gain is never realized.   There is a $5 million dollar exclusion on inheritance tax and a low rate for the gains that are taxable.  Again, if hard work is the key to success in America, why does Paris Hilton (who never worked a day in her life) receive huge amounts of money tax free?  Is that how we encourage people to work hard?
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Scadsobees
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« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2011, 12:54:53 PM »

I say the government needs to just take all those rich peoples money in one fell swoop.  Then this wouldn't be an argument anymore, right?  It would simplify everything.

Besides, I keep hearing about all those rich corporations that are just SITTING on 2 TRILLION dollars that they don't need and them greedy pigs won't hire anybody right now!!  What jerks!

 rolleyes
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« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2011, 01:39:19 PM »

revenue did rise under Reagan.  the problem is that they spent to much.  a great deal of that was on military infrastructure.  since i serve under both admins, i can't argue against that spending, as our military was pretty much in the toilet after Carter.  even so, spending was pretty high.  he also had to make nice with a democrat congress...although not one as liberal as the last.

there was an extension of the tax base under Reagan.  that's fine with me.  it's exactly what i'd like to see now.  instead, we have changed the definition of poverty and have shrunk the tax base. 

the period of economic expansion under Reagan was one of the longest in the history of the country.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2011, 06:48:06 AM »

Here's a plain and simple plan:
1.  The government sticks to its duties as outlined the Constitution = small government.

2.  If you don't work, you don't eat = welfare and other entitlements gone, saving untold tax dollars = lower taxes for the working class.

3.  The lower taxes mean the working class can pay cash for all services.

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iddee
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« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2011, 08:27:12 AM »

Amen, Lenape. Good post.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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