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Author Topic: sad story, but....(adult content?)  (Read 6477 times)
Bee Happy
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« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2011, 10:20:31 AM »



I believe Kathy meant to post the one about the military. If you go down to the third post on first page I posted the article I believe she was talking about. It is about military women being abused by their fellow unit members.

I'll just post it here how's that?


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/02/15/national/main20031948.shtml


good enough, in that case - everything I said before I realized the article was about a reporter willingly walking into an atmosphere of chaos.
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« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2011, 10:29:10 AM »

I have serious doubts about what really happened with the reporter in Egypt.  She had a well established reputation for using her feminine charms to get info, or gain better access to frontlines, or get a ride where she wanted to go, etc.  She freely used sex to get ahead.  My guess is she was trying to get inside access to a story, and a gang bang got out of hand.  (Where was her security detail, or does CBS not pay for those anymore?)


Classic 'she had it coming' and 'blame the victim' response to rape.

Mubarak's thugs in Egypt were out starting fist-fights, cracking heads with pipes and brutalizing women. They were specifically targeting foreign journalists. She was in the wrong place at the wrong time and became another victim. You can blame the victim, society, biology or the CBS corporation  ... what about blaming the rapists??
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« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2011, 10:51:05 AM »

Mubarak's thugs? is that for sure? 'cause wait till you see who fills the power vacuum.
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« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2011, 11:14:53 AM »

Mubarak's thugs? is that for sure? 'cause wait till you see who fills the power vacuum.

There have been dozens of incidents with international journalists in Egypt - some were arrested and beaten, others were targeted on the streets for beatings or a good stone throwing. Haven't heard any journalist or private citizen say they felt threatened by the protesters. Some of the thugs were subdued and found to be carrying IDs showing they were members of the Mubarak's security forces. So yeah, based on the fact that Mubarak was engaged in torture and repression for years and based on what recent evidence we have, he kept using torture and repression in his last two weeks in office.

Yesterday, we saw the Government of Bahrain move in on peaceful protesters with a Tianamen Square type event - tear gas, batons, and firearms were used on a group of people that were sleeping or sitting quietly. Four killed, hundreds wounded, recorded on hundreds of cell phones and video cameras, including some international journalists who were beaten. Clear repression, which is sold on the idea that letting people be in charge of their own government is simply too dangerous.  If it was the Chinese or Cuban government doing the same thing, conservatives would be outraged. But since they agree with the political ends of the repression, many are willing to abandon the idea of inalienable God given rights and support the repression.

« Last Edit: February 17, 2011, 11:33:26 AM by Vetch » Logged
kathyp
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« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2011, 11:40:27 AM »

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But since they agree with the political ends of the repression, many are willing to abandon the idea of inalienable God given rights and support the repression

not so.  and i know that you know history better than to make a statement like that.

when a communist government fails, the end result is more freedom for the people.  that "freedom" is often messy, as it has been in Russia, but the opportunities for the people are still there.  in addition, they are less apt to be an aggressor because they become engaged in trade and travel. 

when a Muslim country overthrows an oppressive government, they are more apt to replace it with another oppressive/radical government.  even if they do not immediately embrace a radical theology, (turkey, for example) those radicals tend to gain more and more power as time goes by.    they become more dangerous because they are driven by a theology that hates, and is sworn to the destruction of, certain groups.

we don't have a lot of examples and examples don't make a rule.  the examples that we do have are sufficient to give us reason for concern.  if we fail to hear and understand the stated goals of the radicals, we do so at our own peril, and i believe we fail to hear because we are basically euro-centric in our thinking.  we simply do not believe that those people can actually do what they say they want to do. 
we should have learned by now since more than once we have lost 1000's of lives when we did not believe.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2011, 11:41:27 AM »

I can't help but wonder, though, why would a "Tyrant" use thugs on foot to quell a riot. If he had already lost command of the military to put riots down, then he really wasn't in power anymore - or he wasn't the tyrannical monster he was made out to be.
And then there's this - taken directly from the article: "she and her team and their security were surrounded by a dangerous element amidst the celebration."
Mubarak was already out according to that, and the mob she got caught in was very likely NOT his "Private police"
I can only guess, but if I were employed as a brutal thug working for a tyrant and the power took a shift - the last thing I would be doing is running around raping people in the streets; I would be hard at work getting myself out of the country and figuring out where I would go.
I think we've had nothing but "official spin" from the beginning on the events in Egypt - and adding leapt upon conclusions does nothing for anyones credibility.
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« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2011, 11:55:56 AM »

there is even a question about the thugs ever having been his.  to what end?  it was in his interest to have the protests end.  the agitation by the thugs just stirred it up again.  assuming he was not a stupid man, what would Mubarak think to gain by this?  who would gain?

i did intend to post about the reporter.  sorry if i was not clear in my comments.  i was interested in the war/rape dynamic.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2011, 12:02:56 PM »

War bad, rape bad, fire bad, bread good, fire good.
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« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2011, 12:32:47 PM »


when a Muslim country overthrows an oppressive government, they are more apt to replace it with another oppressive/radical government. 

Your statement proves my point exactly. You are in favor of pre-empting democracy and human rights, on the grounds that things might get worse. The people might elect a government that does not respect rights or might go to war with their neighbor, so we can't let them vote. That is an extremely elitist view. It is rather similar to the logic of those who favor gun control - the people cannot be trusted with guns or ballots unless they conform to this list of political demands. Not buying it. 

I say let them vote, if they do not respect human rights or launch an unjust war, then people can deal with that. Fear that someone might do something wrong is not justification to limit freedom.
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« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2011, 12:33:37 PM »

i did intend to post about the reporter.  sorry if i was not clear in my comments.  i was interested in the war/rape dynamic.

I do not see where the reporter incident fits into the war/rape spectrum.

It seems more of a mob thing.

A gang finding a victim.

A scenario that could happen at the Mardi Gras.  
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« Reply #50 on: February 17, 2011, 12:44:28 PM »

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You are in favor of pre-empting democracy and human rights, on the grounds that things might get worse

you have applied your prejudice against conservative views to what i have said.  i have applied my memory of how happy people (especially the left)  in the US were for the Iranian students in '79.  i simply suggest that we view this with the understanding that history is not on the side of freedom in this area of the world.  i don't think that democracy should be the goal.  there is a reason that we were not made a democracy. 

Quote
I do not see where the reporter incident fits into the war/rape spectrum.

maybe it doesn't.  i was wondering if the same dynamic that sent warriors to pillage and rape after battle, especially after winning, was at play for the revolutionaries.  after days of danger, lack of sleep, a feeling of having won, were they behaving in the same way that soldiers often do.  also making the observation that this kind of rape is not the same as the pervert on the street kind of rape.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #51 on: February 17, 2011, 01:05:03 PM »

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I do not see where the reporter incident fits into the war/rape spectrum.
maybe it doesn't.  i was wondering if the same dynamic that sent warriors to pillage and rape after battle, especially after winning, was at play for the revolutionaries.  after days of danger, lack of sleep, a feeling of having won, were they behaving in the same way that soldiers often do.  also making the observation that this kind of rape is not the same as the pervert on the street kind of rape.

You could be right. I think it is a crime just like any other no matter where. Give a person of the right mind set the right opportunity and they commit the crime. Take all the looting and vandalizing that happens during riots and natural disasters. It doesn't matter what the cause is, the opportunity is there. Is it caused by heightened adrenalin levels? I have been in many near death situations with the adrenalin rush and crash and never once thought about raping pillaging and/or plundering. And then again I wasn't in a gang/mob either.

I can not see where a combat situation, with bullets flying, explosives going off, and people dying, causes someone to loose the capability of understanding their actions, or hindering their ability to reason. If you know something was wrong to do before the fire fight, then you know it is wrong to do after the fire fight.
 
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« Reply #52 on: February 17, 2011, 01:20:21 PM »

seems to me that we expect a lot of soldiers.

we expect them to be in a war zone, to be targets of enemy fire, yet not to lose their cool and start shooting at civilians even in cases where the civilians are indistinguishable from the enemy (in dress, behavior, skin color, physical features, etc).  to someone that has just been (or is actively) under fire, this is a real suppression of instinct.

i should qualify this with the statement that i've never been in the military....but i have been "in the wrong place at the wrong time" and been present during an armed home invasion (tied up on the floor, gun barrel in my mouth)....btw, they discussed (while we were tied up) raping us before they left...there were no women present.

in any case, we cannot tolerate raping and/or pillaging from our soldiers...of "the enemy", of "the occupied people", of civilians, of soldiers of allied nations, of soldiers of neutral nations, of soldiers of enemy nations....if we don't tolerate the above (and we don't...things happen, and i'm sure some are overlooked...but for the most part, american soldiers are held accountable for their actions in such situations), i don't see how we can simply accept that american male soldiers will rape american female soldiers in battle conditions.

i don't doubt that there are tenancies, urges, compulsions, human nature, etc. that make this difficult, but is it any different than other "natural" behaviors that we expect our soldiers to not engage in?

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« Reply #53 on: February 17, 2011, 01:24:31 PM »

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You are in favor of pre-empting democracy and human rights, on the grounds that things might get worse

... i don't think that democracy should be the goal.  there is a reason that we were not made a democracy.  


If you want to split words, fine. We are a Republic where we elect representatives, not every decision is put to the voters and our government is not 100% a democracy. True, but irrelevant. We were founded on the idea that governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed. Bahrain is a monarchy. Egypt was a one party state where elections were rigged in ten different ways and where family ties and cronyism were the only determinants of how government was run, and where the people had no input into how the government operated.

Yes, the people of Iran overthrew one unjust government based on monarchy, only to see it replaced by another unjust government based on theocracy. They need to keep trying. They need to keep overthrowing any government that does not respect the rights of its citizens, which does not draw its power from the consent of the governed. Political victory is not permanent, nor is defeat.
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« Reply #54 on: February 17, 2011, 09:06:43 PM »

Classic 'she had it coming' and 'blame the victim' response to rape.

You misread my post.

Interestingly, now CBS is saying she never got raped.  It never happened.

But Lara Logan sure did get her name front page in the press - EXACTLY what she wanted.

It's women like this who can give good women a bad name.
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« Reply #55 on: February 17, 2011, 10:02:11 PM »

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But Lara Logan sure did get her name front page in the press - EXACTLY what she wanted.

to my knowledge she has not done an interview or given a statement.  whatever story we got came from CBS.  would you apply the same standard to the men who were attacked and then did give interviews and statements?  BTW...sexual assault does not have to include penetration. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #56 on: February 17, 2011, 10:27:07 PM »

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we know normal guys do not rape.  we know rape is not about sex.  however, intense events seem to lead some (many?) otherwise normal guys to do it.  if this is true, and history seems to point to it being true, why do we put women in the path of this? 


bottom line is, if we tell women they can't, someone will sue someone else.

because there are women who so strongly want to be treated as any other soldier or sailor out there ( don't get me wrong i admire them for that )but i just don't think they truly understand all of the ramifications of this choice and there are lawyers willing to use them as pawns in a lawsuit just to make some money.

let's face it we live in a country where ( for the most part ) women are treated with far more respect and consideration than a lot of third world/stone age countries in this world so these young women that are typically out on their own in the world for the first time are clueless to the ways of the world ( and no, this isn't true only of the women).

 take into consideration that sex is a form of stress release also and people in a warzone are under an immense amount of stress, not saying that it is justified by any stretch of the imagination. as someone else mentioned, the military is just a cross section of our society therefore sadly there are even rapists in the military.
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« Reply #57 on: February 17, 2011, 10:33:54 PM »

Classic 'she had it coming' and 'blame the victim' response to rape.

You misread my post.

Interestingly, now CBS is saying she never got raped.  It never happened.

But Lara Logan sure did get her name front page in the press - EXACTLY what she wanted.

It's women like this who can give good women a bad name.

I was just wondering earlier today if we wouldn't hear something like this.
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« Reply #58 on: February 17, 2011, 10:45:36 PM »

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because there are women who so strongly want to be treated as any other soldier or sailor out there ( don't get me wrong i admire them for that )but i just don't think they truly understand all of the ramifications of this choice and there are lawyers willing to use them as pawns in a lawsuit just to make some money.


and there are some women who can't stop being female.  i was fortunate to grow up in a family where there was no distinction between genders in what we were expected to do.  i got the same auto and weapons training as the boys and they did housework.  when my father thought we might kill each other and bought boxing gloves, he got them for all of us.  there were times when i was expected to put on a dress and act like a lady.  there were times that they boys had to act like gentlemen.  the rest of the time we were the same.

when i went into the military and chose my path it was with no thought to gender.  i didn't really realize i'd chosen something unusual.  it was not until i got into training that i found that others saw gender and were not happy i was there.  so..i had to work a little harder and prove myself a little more, but it still wasn't about gender for me.  it was just about doing my job and being really good at it.

i understand women going into a mans world.  guess i just understand the risk a little better now, than i did them.  if i had to do it over even knowing what i now know, i'd do the same.  i'm betting this reporter would also. 

i know this has nothing to do with my original question, but the reporter, like all of us, made choices and has to live with the consequences.   we know the potential consequences, we need to understand the "why" better.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #59 on: February 18, 2011, 06:59:15 AM »

... I trust my judgement much further than the idea that others will have better self control.

Those that stroll through life thinking they have a right to not be violated by others, while taking no precautions or measures of security, usually gets educated very quickly.
Excellent post!
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