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Author Topic: Glenn Beck  (Read 6727 times)
VolunteerK9
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« Reply #60 on: February 11, 2011, 03:03:15 PM »


....it'll take a revolution and hopefully some civil disobedience to get back to something we started with....


Be careful what you wish for. Even though I do not approve of some/most of our current administration has done or wants to do, I do not want what is happening in Egypt to spill over on American soil. In my younger years I was guilty of saying " I don't care what happens next, it can't be any worse than now" only to have to eat those words some time later. I'll take being a slightly disgruntled American over being a starved out (insert any other country here) any day.  People that think things are so bad here need to go visit a 3rd world country elsewhere.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #61 on: February 11, 2011, 03:34:22 PM »

I would like to be back in the early 1800's on my horse plodding along out in the middle of nowhere. No one to depend on but myself and my horse.

But I am not back in those days. I am here in these days with all this mess that other people have imposed upon me. I would like to do my own thing and everyone leave me alone, but the government demands certain things from me, because they offer all these great and wonderful gifts  rolleyes

I have no choice but to use the roads they offer, other wise I would get arrested for not driving on them.

I have home schooled but still had to pay taxes for other people's kids to go to school.

I prefer to keep my money and pay my own way, but the government doesn't let me.

So yes, I use things offered by the government (all levels) because I have to, not because I want to.
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« Reply #62 on: February 11, 2011, 08:53:07 PM »

And as far as changing things in America,womens rights were granted in the proper way By constitutional amendment,not by legislation or regulation.
The civil war was a battle over states rights. Not slavery necessarily,although that was a major issue of states rights.
  Slavery should and rightfully was abolished,but the civil war is where a lot of states started to lose their rights.
The amendment process was designed to make the changes needed over time to the Constitution. It was not meant to be soiled by Executive order, legislated away or regulated away.
   This was the states way of maintaining control over the size and power of the federal government.Most states mindlessly handed over the power one step at a time ,eventually letting the feds hand power down to the states,inverse of the way it should be.
I think in the very near term you will see states like Arizona and Texas test the very ability of states to take back the powers afforded them from the federal government.Once that happens many more will follow suit. When Pennsylvanians are expected to pay for Californias reckless spending,I hope our citizens stand back and say it ain't gonna happen.
 
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Countryboy
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« Reply #63 on: February 11, 2011, 10:31:12 PM »

Did you or your kids go to public schoo?

I attended public school, and received a horrible education.  Much of my good education has been from outside the public school system.

Do you ever drive on public roads,

I have driven on interstate highways a couple times, but I prefer traveling on trails across private lands.  Yes, I have read the actual land patents for many lands, and landowners were granted all rights, privileges, and immunities.  Private landowners made and improved trails across their lands - after they had done all the work, government suddenly claims the trails are 'public roads'.

use a public water system,

Of course not.  Even Congress won't drink public water because they know public water is contaminated with a toxic chemical the US government shipped by the trainload to WWII POW camps because this chemical makes people docile and passive.  (Congress has bottled water brought in.)

or public septic system?

I think I have used bathroom facilities at parks before.

Do you rely on the FAA to keep you safe when you fly?

Absolutely not - I don't fly.

Do you have American dollars in your bank account? 


Nope.  No one does, because banks won't hold American dollars in a bank account.  (They convert them to Federal Reserve notes, which is a private banks notes.)
I DO have American dollars in my safe - you know, silver dollars and gold eagles.

If you answered yes to any of that those questions ten shut your hole about getting the gov't out of your business.


How do you figure that?  Government has it's purposes, but it should go no further than it's purposes.  By your rationale, if government is allowed to do anything, and I use a permissable function of government, then I should allow government to do whatever evil it wants.  That's ridiculous.

I oppose public roads - we should stand on property rights of the owner of the land the road is on.
I oppose public schools.  I have seen firsthand the massively higher quality education in local one room schools that are privately ran.
I oppose public utilities.  I am in favor of private utilities.

I oppose fiat currency.  I am in favor of government regulating the coinage of gold and silver coins.  Establishing a solid coinage, defending our borders, and securing people in their rights is the purpose of government.  These are things I approve of government doing.

I am not against government - I just recognize that private industry and free markets are a better answer to many problems.  Government does have it's place.  However, government has no business being in any economic activity, since government does not operate under principles of profit and loss.  Without that guidance, government has no incentive not to waste tax dollars.

public schools?  they pretty much suck, don't they? 

The 16th section (1 sq mile - 640 acres) of every township was allocated to schools.  The school system could still support itself from proceeds from those lands if schools hadn't sold off those lands for a quick buck.  (Interestingly, the English nobility even today support themselves with their own large landholdings.)

ditto the roads.  that is both a state and federal problem.

Originally, roads were made on the edge of properties.  Roads would straddle two properties.  it was the landowner's responsibility to maintain the roadway to their own satisfaction.  (They had to use it the most, so they derived the most benefit from the road.  They owned it and used it the most so that gave them the right to maintain it to their own satisfaction.) That is still a realistic solution even today - roads would be in comparable condition to our driveways.

both slavery and womens right to vote were CORRECTED on a national level by amendments to the constitution.

You do realize the slaves were freed to generate tax revenue, don't you?  The federal government only had the power to tax itself.  (Supreme Court says fed gov't was given no new powers of taxation with 16th amendment - fed income tax is actually a tax on federal income)  Slaves had no citizenship.  People have State citizenships.  When the slaves were freed, the federal Gov't gave them the privilege of FEDERAL citizenship.  By having federal citizenship, they could be paid for their labors, and the federal government could tax their privilege of federal citizenship.  Granted, the government would not generate much tax revenue from freed slaves, but when you have virtually no tax revenue coming in, ANY tax revenue is better than nothing.

It as NOT a failed document, but intended to grow and change as we changed.  THAT was the original intent of the founding fathers.

The original founding fathers were furious about the Constitution being changed by the Supreme Court, saying the Constitution had been turned to wax. (Jefferson)

i said the constitution was the law of the land and should be followed.

The law of the land is the common law that courts no longer recognize, but is still in force.

if the country does not want to stick by the constitution, they can call for a constitutional convention and dump the thing.  until then, they need to follow the law.

You might want to read the Declaration of Independence.  People have the right to violently overthrow an unjust government too.  A convention is unnecessary.

Here is a quick quiz to show you if you are really a liberal, conservative, centrist, statist, or libertarian.
http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz
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Vetch
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« Reply #64 on: February 12, 2011, 09:16:15 AM »

I would like to be back in the early 1800's on my horse plodding along out in the middle of nowhere. No one to depend on but myself and my horse.

That points to part of the problem - we now have 300 million people, but the systems that made sense for colonial America don't always scale up to modern dimensions. Here are two quotes by Thomas Jefferson:

"When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, we shall become as corrupt as Europe."

"I view great cities as pestilential to the morals, the health and the liberties of man. True, they nourish some of the elegant arts; but the useful ones can thrive elsewhere; and less perfection in the others, with more health, virtue and freedom, would be my choice."

Technology changed everything. Factories led to massive centralization of economic and political power - the civil war was as much about the war between industry and agriculture as it was about slavery, and industry won. This was an inevitable historic trend.
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kathyp
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« Reply #65 on: February 12, 2011, 10:15:27 AM »

Quote
"I view great cities as pestilential to the morals, the health and the liberties of man. True, they nourish some of the elegant arts; but the useful ones can thrive elsewhere; and less perfection in the others, with more health, virtue and freedom, would be my choice."

i like that one.  TJ is probably one of our most fascinating founders, and least understood.

i am still trying to figure out why so many who live in cities are liberals.  i haven't quite got it, but i don't think it's city life changing them.  it's them gravitating toward city living.  maybe on day i'll do a real study and write a book  grin  might may be rich!!
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
sterling
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« Reply #66 on: February 12, 2011, 11:38:18 AM »

Quote
"I view great cities as pestilential to the morals, the health and the liberties of man. True, they nourish some of the elegant arts; but the useful ones can thrive elsewhere; and less perfection in the others, with more health, virtue and freedom, would be my choice."

i like that one.  TJ is probably one of our most fascinating founders, and least understood.

i am still trying to figure out why so many who live in cities are liberals.  i haven't quite got it, but i don't think it's city life changing them.  it's them gravitating toward city living.  maybe on day i'll do a real study and write a book  grin  might may be rich!!
I haven't been reading all this thread so I may be speaking out of turn. But liberals don't think for themselves. They believe what others say no questions ask. Many learn that lifestyle at the big liberal schools that have a lot of communist professers teaching their liberal views. So they live in cities so they can find their way around by following the crowd and being told what to do by the city government.
If liberals were self thinkers they would not think govt. was better able to control all their lives then they are. What to eat [saturated fat, salt, happy meals] and health care are just a couple examples.
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Vetch
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« Reply #67 on: February 12, 2011, 12:09:19 PM »


i am still trying to figure out why so many who live in cities are liberals.  i haven't quite got it, but i don't think it's city life changing them.  it's them gravitating toward city living. 

There is an urban gravity. It both attracts people, and changes them. Certain personal liberties have been traditionally been higher in the cities. Small towns and rural areas are often more homogenous and conservative, less tolerant of many traits. So people who don't feel like they fit in reject that conservative outlook and move towards the cities.

And rights do change with density. If you put a family in a 10' x 10' waiting room, they can sing and dance and act as they like. As more people get added, the 'right' of the kids to run around and scream and practice karate is reduced. Same is true with air pollution. If a region is sparsely populated, no one cares if everyone has woodstoves and fireplaces or if their car leaves a bit of smoke. When you put 10 million people in a valley that is dominated by high pressure systems (like Los Angeles), then air pollution can become so bad that car emission inspections and other limits become necessary ... things like 2 stroke lawnmowers become real problems that infringe on the rights of others at this density.
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Vetch
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« Reply #68 on: February 12, 2011, 12:14:23 PM »

I haven't been reading all this thread so I may be speaking out of turn. But liberals don't think for themselves. They believe what others say no questions ask.

That is a faulty generalization that shows you either never took a class in logic (or you failed to get anything out of it). People of all political persuasions are prone to groupthink, no one is immune to accepting ideas just because others within their group accept it.
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kathyp
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« Reply #69 on: February 12, 2011, 01:16:49 PM »

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Small towns and rural areas are often more homogenous and conservative, less tolerant of many traits. So people who don't feel like they fit in reject that conservative outlook and move towards the cities.


i think that most of what you posted is probably true.  this part I'm not so sure about.

i ask people a lot of questions when i get the chance  grin.  just had the opportunity to work with some red cross people who were kind of horrified to have had to drive out to the woods for our flooding.  they liked the convenience of the city, but more than that, they felt unsafe in the woods.  they were amazed that people didn't come to us for help (told them they wouldn't), and they had no concept of the individual caring for themselves.  living in the city seems to give them a (false) sense of safety and they are quite happy to give up individual freedoms for that sense of security.  at it's heart, this is liberalism.  the idea that someone should be there for every problem that comes along.  government should be there.

i think that it is more that people who think this way, gravitate toward the city. those of us who choose not to give up our individual freedoms and responsibilities, stay out of the city.  i don't expect the ambulance to be here in 3 minutes.  i know i am going to have to plow my own road when it snows.  i like to heat with wood.  it's ok with me if the power goes out and no one gets out here for awhile.

one of the things that really amazed one of the kids i was working with, was that there were no street lights!  it was soooo dark out there  grin
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #70 on: February 12, 2011, 02:23:18 PM »

... but more than that, they felt unsafe in the woods.

Sure. But I see that as people being out of their element. They don't understand it, they don't know how to act and react. I remember moving from a small town in the Midwest to a rather large city in the South, and that was associated with a large degree of uncertainty, doubt, and sometimes fear. What neighborhoods are ok during the day, but better avoided at night? What neighborhoods are best avoided altogether? Why the heck do 3 or 4 people continue through the light after it turns red? The first week, I was going out for groceries at 8pm, and when I pulled into the parking lot, there was a police car sitting right in front of the supermarket. My reaction was "Oh bleep, there was just a robbery!" and I immediately turned around and left.  Turned out that it is a standard practice to have a cop hanging around to prevent a robbery.


Quote
Small towns and rural areas are often more homogenous and conservative, less tolerant of many traits. So people who don't feel like they fit in reject that conservative outlook and move towards the cities.


i think that most of what you posted is probably true.  this part I'm not so sure about.


I'm not gay (not there is anything wrong with that), but am convinced the movement of gays towards San Francisco and NYC are a case in point ... initially, far more tolerance in the cities, less of a threat of violence and ostracization than in small towns. The whole "not that there is anything wrong with that" phrase was made popular on Seinfeld, and I suggest it is more typical of the urban areas when it comes to personal life styles.

In general, part of it is about having a critical density of people to represent the interests of a minority group. Another part of it is that there is already a wide variety of people in a big city (ethnicity and languages, religions, cultural styles, etc) so that people in a city don't fixate on other people's lives the way that often happens in small-town settings. For better and for worse, people in the city don't know their neighbors and don't care. This actually increases freedom and weakens community.

And I remember living in a relatively rural area where my religious beliefs were not in-synch with the two predominant denominations in the area. Not that I was harassed or overtly made unwelcome, but I felt that I was considered differently, not so much a part of the town, and that there were social and economic costs.  And the lack of fellow congregants also was a drawback. But in most metropolitan areas, that is not a limit: people in the city are not so likely to ask what church I go to within 5 minutes of meeting me - the looks of surprise and alarm from that conversation are rare in densely populated areas because it doesn't get asked so much, and people don't really care... there are hundreds of different denominations instead of just a few, that creates a different mentality.  And in the city, a relatively quick drive puts me in communion with people that share the same traditions and beliefs that I do.
  
« Last Edit: February 12, 2011, 02:49:48 PM by Vetch » Logged
kathyp
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« Reply #71 on: February 12, 2011, 05:57:48 PM »

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This actually increases freedom and weakens community.


again, i don't disagree with you.  the above is a true statement, but the fact is, they have the illusion of community.  it's not until there is a disaster that their illusion is destroyed. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #72 on: February 12, 2011, 06:38:58 PM »

Quote
"I view great cities as pestilential to the morals, the health and the liberties of man. True, they nourish some of the elegant arts; but the useful ones can thrive elsewhere; and less perfection in the others, with more health, virtue and freedom, would be my choice."

i like that one.  TJ is probably one of our most fascinating founders, and least understood.

i am still trying to figure out why so many who live in cities are liberals.  i haven't quite got it, but i don't think it's city life changing them.  it's them gravitating toward city living.  maybe on day i'll do a real study and write a book  grin  might may be rich!!
I haven't been reading all this thread so I may be speaking out of turn. But liberals don't think for themselves. They believe what others say no questions ask. Many learn that lifestyle at the big liberal schools that have a lot of communist professers teaching their liberal views. So they live in cities so they can find their way around by following the crowd and being told what to do by the city government.
If liberals were self thinkers they would not think govt. was better able to control all their lives then they are. What to eat [saturated fat, salt, happy meals] and health care are just a couple examples.

Sterling,

I think that's a bit of an oversimplification.  Also the fact that your exact phrasing come straight off talk radio and Fox News show that these really are not YOUR own thoughts, but ones you've picked up from other people.  Your assumptions don't really reflect the thoughts of someone who interacts with actual liberals ( or anyone else who doesn't think like yourself) on a regular basis.

That may be a generalization as well, but your descriptions of commmunist college professors, etc. is straight from Conservative media talking points.
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kathyp
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« Reply #73 on: February 12, 2011, 06:47:37 PM »

Quote
Also the fact that your exact phrasing come straight off talk radio and Fox News show that these really are not YOUR


and yours comes directly from liberal talk and sites that wish to blame fox news, etc. for all that conservatives think. 

as for the college professors, http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/18/arts/18liberal.html

not sure i agree with all of their conclusions about why, but as they say ......those that can't....teach.....  theory is so much easier than reality.  ask Marx and Engels.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
sterling
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« Reply #74 on: February 12, 2011, 07:04:34 PM »

Your assumptions are actualy generalizations. I have conversations with some of my inlaws too often that live with these liberal ideas and they were educated in the situations I mentioned. They have the same talking points day in and day out regardless of what happens. And it is easy for me to come to the conclusions I have concerning their, might I say, stupid ideas. When you live as close as I do with extreme liberals you do not have to listen to a radio to know there is something wrong either with them or me. And I choose to think it is them.
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« Reply #75 on: February 12, 2011, 07:28:30 PM »

Your assumptions are actualy generalizations. I have conversations with some of my inlaws too often that live with these liberal ideas and they were educated in the situations I mentioned. They have the same talking points day in and day out regardless of what happens. And it is easy for me to come to the conclusions I have concerning their, might I say, stupid ideas. When you live as close as I do with extreme liberals you do not have to listen to a radio to know there is something wrong either with them or me. And I choose to think it is them.

And I choose to think it is you. grin
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Vetch
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« Reply #76 on: February 12, 2011, 07:48:53 PM »

Meanwhile, Beck told Kristol and other critics of his ideas to "Go to Hell" and even Bill O'Reilly isn't buying Beck's hysteria.
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Vetch
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« Reply #77 on: February 12, 2011, 08:40:59 PM »

Quote
This actually increases freedom and weakens community.


again, i don't disagree with you.  the above is a true statement, but the fact is, they have the illusion of community.  it's not until there is a disaster that their illusion is destroyed. 

There are different types of community, different expectations. Does the urban apartment community contain a contractual agreement that people will go the extra mile for their neighbors if there is a disaster, or does it assume that the people will be self-reliant in most such cases?

People prioritize what they want, and looks for community that will deliver that. People that have a bad experience with the local people (or government, or corporations, or church) commonly turn against those forms of community and are willing to bear other risks to deal with the things they fear or dislike most. People that experience hardship that is eased by a form of community will cling to that form and gladly give up other things. There is no 'one size fits all' solution to life or community.
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« Reply #78 on: February 16, 2011, 03:26:08 AM »

There is more Beck can't say, that he can. You have to read between the lines. When he did his special on the Russian Revolution, he won me over. Just telling the world whom the Bolsheviks really were (are), brought unwritten history into the light, and made a lot of other things down through history, make sense. After all, the victors write the history.
I'm just not sure where he is going with the Caliphate thing. Unless of course, there is more than one group with a plan to take over the world, cloaked in a religion.
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« Reply #79 on: February 16, 2011, 10:22:20 AM »

Quote
"I view great cities as pestilential to the morals, the health and the liberties of man. True, they nourish some of the elegant arts; but the useful ones can thrive elsewhere; and less perfection in the others, with more health, virtue and freedom, would be my choice."

i like that one.  TJ is probably one of our most fascinating founders, and least understood.

i am still trying to figure out why so many who live in cities are liberals.  i haven't quite got it, but i don't think it's city life changing them.  it's them gravitating toward city living.  maybe on day i'll do a real study and write a book  grin  might may be rich!!
I haven't been reading all this thread so I may be speaking out of turn. But liberals don't think for themselves. They believe what others say no questions ask. Many learn that lifestyle at the big liberal schools that have a lot of communist professers teaching their liberal views. So they live in cities so they can find their way around by following the crowd and being told what to do by the city government.
If liberals were self thinkers they would not think govt. was better able to control all their lives then they are. What to eat [saturated fat, salt, happy meals] and health care are just a couple examples.

um dude...no one is immune to hypocrisy....your post above is a weak attempt at humor and great attempt at ignorance....
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