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Author Topic: Forced Inspections???  (Read 10297 times)
hardwood
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« Reply #80 on: February 10, 2011, 10:29:01 PM »

Rob, that's a horrid story. I hope the guy got what he deserved!

Scott
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"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

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rdy-b
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« Reply #81 on: February 11, 2011, 12:47:36 AM »

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jdnewberry - You only came to terms with what your state requires because they said come to terms with it, OR ELSE.  Has it dawned on anyone that everytime we are FORCED to register something wheather its guns or bees that we give up a little piece of our privacy?  It seems that the majority of those of you that have commented on this post either don't mind that fact or you WANT to give up your GOD given right to privacy.

That's not entirely correct.  Today, 16 years after I started beekeeping, I could still have my hives unregistered and the government would say nothing about it.  Nobody has the time or desire to drive through the countryside looking for beehives just to check a map to see if they've been registered.  The benefits to the beekeeper FAR outweigh the inconvenience.  

The major benefit to me, the reason I will always register my apiaries, is pesticides.  I very nearly lost two of my three hives just four months after I started beekeeping due to pesticide poisoning.  Since I registered with the state, I've not suffered a loss.  I'm notified anytime a farmer plans on spraying near my hives allowing me to protect my investment.

I agree that the government has overstepped it's bounds in many situations and has regulated TOO MANY things to the point where they are out of reach for the average citizen, but I think you've missed the points we're trying to make here...  The government only cares about your bees if:
     1) You are selling bees and or queens that were produced in DISEASED hives
     2) You are maintaining DISEASED hives which are infecting other hives within your forage area
     3) You are producing and selling more than 5,000 lbs of honey per year (FDA)
     4) You are transporting DISEASED or PEST-RIDDEN hives across some sort of boundary, be it political or natural.

As an organic farmer, you are probably more aware of non-native garden pests than most of us other folks.  these pests were imported and transported by some means, whatever it may have been.  The same goes for SHB, varroa mites, tracheal mites, fire ants, EFB, etc...  Properly inspecting a hive before moving it to another location is a trait of a bee "KEEPER", not a bee "HAVER."  Not only will it protect your future apiary from these pests, but it will also protect your fellow beekeepers in the area.  If the inspector finds these pests, he's not going to say fix this issue "or else," he'll offer to assist in fixing the issue.  If you decide to move the hive anyway, there is not going to be a cop stationed down the road watching for hives on the move...

It works the other way, too.  Let's say that someone else decides to relocate an apiary in your forage area.  It could be infected with any number of pests or diseases.  If they lost a hive to AFB and did not destroy that hive, your bees could potentially find the empty hive and rob the infected honey for their own use, thus infecting your hive.  Every time you replaced your bees, they could suffer exactly the same fate until the other situation is corrected.  If they transported fire ants, too, you will soon have them as well.  Just because you are a prudent and knowledgeable bee "keeper" doesn't mean that your neighbors are as well.

Looking back at the AFB situation, this is probably the only situation where you might suffer an inspection in the real world.  If you and your fellow beekeepers in the area suddenly start suffering losses from AFB and report the losses to the state apiculturist, that alerts them that there is a serious issue that must be fixed.  They'll start inspecting apiaries in the area in an attempt to locate the source of the problem.  If that infected hive happens to be registered, it will be destroyed as a measure to protect your own hives.  If you suffer those AFB losses and never report them to the government, they may never know of the issue and you could continue to suffer losses - worse still, a major outbreak could ensue, endangering every honey bee in your region.  I admit that this is not a likely scenario, but an example of the importance if hive registration.

Years ago Langstroth hives were mandated in many states because of the ease of inspection.  This made all other hives such as "bee gums" illegal.  In recent years Top Bar hives have increased in popularity because it allows the bees to create a more natural nest and possibly allows them to maintain better health.  The people who maintain Top Bar hives still have them inspected.  The government DOES NOT force them to switch to the legal Langstroth hive.  They have too many other things to worry about.  As long as everything is well maintained and reasonably healthy, they could care less.

The governments goal here is to protect the bees we already have, educate the public about bees and ENCOURAGE more people to get into beekeeping.  70% of our food supply is dependent on the honey bee.  If the bees go away, so does our food.  the responsible bee "KEEPER" has nothing to worry about from hive registration.  You will likely never even see an inspector unless you call one yourself.  In 16 years, I've never had an inspection that I didn't ASK for personally.  The irresponsible bee "HAVER" doesn't have anything to fear from inspections either...  Worst case scenario, if an inspection happens and AFB is found, the INFECTED hive is destroyed.  If the inspection were to find mites or beetles, they would merely suggest a treatment.  It only serves to improve your bees' health and productivity, enhancing the benefits your hives provide.  

No one will EVER say that you are NOT ALLOWED to own bees.  No one will EVER take them from you.  No one will EVER mandate a treatment regiment for your bees.  There is only a MINUTE chance that you will ever be inspected unless you ask for it on your own.  If you are an informed and knowledgeable bee "KEEPER" and get inspected, There is only a MINUTE chance that an issue will be found.  If an issue is found, there is only a MINUTE chance that a hive will be destroyed.

There is a STRONG chance that one of the crops in your area will be sprayed this year.  If your bees are using that crop as forage, there is a STRONG chance that you will suffer a pesticide related loss.  If your hives are not registered, there is a STRONG chance that you will never be informed of the pesticide application.

Registration is a VALUABLE SERVICE that is being provided FREE OF CHARGE.  It was never meant to be a hindrance or inconvenience.  If you choose not to take advantage of this service, it's you're prerogative, but 99% of the bee "KEEPERS" out there will sing the praises of hive registration.

In short, I came to terms with registration because I recognized the benefit of doing so.  I have never given up my right to privacy, because my privacy has never been invaded.  My bees are NOT being policed, nor am I being policed.  I have my hives inspected before transport, not because I'm forced to, but to protect my fellow beekeepers from unwanted pests and diseases.  If I have a question that I don't know the answer to, I take advantage of the free service that is being offered to me so that I might become a better, more informed beekeeper.

Register or don't register....  your choice.  After seeing the benefits, I for one will ALWAYS register.
are you anywhere near a town called CORRYTON-RDY-B
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jdnewberry
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« Reply #82 on: February 11, 2011, 12:52:25 AM »

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are you anywhere near a town called CORRYTON

I'm about 45 mins away from there...  Pretty small town - I'm surprised you know where that is!
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rdy-b
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« Reply #83 on: February 11, 2011, 01:25:10 AM »

yep small world- Wink--RDY-B
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Acebird
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« Reply #84 on: February 11, 2011, 08:23:37 AM »

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For some reason beekeepers here think a sign like that is inviting more trouble for us than if we just kept quite and let folks spray.

I don't get it.  What are they spraying for?  You should be raising a stink on that alone.
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Countryboy
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« Reply #85 on: February 11, 2011, 10:53:03 PM »

I don't get it.  What are they spraying for?  You should be raising a stink on that alone.

Farmers commonly spray to control various pests and diseases.

Why should we be raising a stink because a farmer is trying to grow food on their land to feed us?  I would only make a complete fool of myself if I was raising a stink about the farmer down the road spraying his crops.
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Acebird
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« Reply #86 on: February 12, 2011, 09:19:23 AM »

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Why should we be raising a stink because a farmer is trying to grow food on their land to feed us?

Who is the fool?  The one eating the food the farmer has poisioned or the one asking him to stop?
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Vetch
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« Reply #87 on: February 12, 2011, 09:34:06 AM »

I don't get it.  What are they spraying for?  You should be raising a stink on that alone.

Farmers commonly spray to control various pests and diseases.

Why should we be raising a stink because a farmer is trying to grow food on their land to feed us?  I would only make a complete fool of myself if I was raising a stink about the farmer down the road spraying his crops.

If each farmer kept all the chemicals they spray entirely on their own land, then only a busybody would pay any attention. But when sprays drift from his property to yours or mine, it is no longer an individual issue - it now involves a group of people. Some pesticides can wipe out a hive of bees. Other pesticides can destroy my vegetation on my property. The long term health consequences of other sprays are unknown.

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Acebird
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« Reply #88 on: February 12, 2011, 03:21:06 PM »

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If each farmer kept all the chemicals they spray entirely on their own land,

That is impossible.  Assuming it didn't run off into streams it would still leach into the water table and from there it goes hundreds of miles.
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oliver
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« Reply #89 on: February 12, 2011, 03:32:02 PM »

Robo,,similar situation here, in the 70s, young man up to 50 colonies got the attention of the local big bee man who happened to be the inspectors brother in law. Upon inspection all hives were found to be infected with foul brood, though he had not pulled a frame, did'nt have to , said he could smell it, just went down the row popping the lids and dumping red paint. Put him out business real fast and eliminated competition..This was an aquaintence,  made me inspector shy..
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WPG
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« Reply #90 on: February 12, 2011, 04:01:52 PM »

Sounds like the B-n-law was related to 'Big Al'.
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Countryboy
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« Reply #91 on: February 13, 2011, 07:43:33 PM »

Really?! What good does registering you hives do?  What's your motivation?

Your motivation to register your beeyards is because it is required by law.

We have very weak protections in Ohio against pesticide poisoning.  To have any legal protection against pesticide poisoning, you have to post a sign at the road (I believe a certain size) clearly stating the exact location of the hives, the owner, and the contact information for the owner.  You must also post a sign in the beeyard with the same info.  It sticks in my mind that you may have a burden to contact all the spray applicators in the area also.

and took it upon himself to declare many of our yards to have AFB and burned them without even notifying us before hand.

From what I understand, a commercial beekeeper had several hives burned.  He sued the state and won something like $1.2 million.  The court ruled that if an inspector finds foulbrood, they are required to give the hive owner the opportunity to medicate the hive.  The inspector has to make repeated visits to check a foulbrood hive, and the owner has to ignore all the warnings, before the state can burn a hive.

Who is the fool?  The one eating the food the farmer has poisioned or the one asking him to stop?

Considering that <2% of Americans are farmers, and the other 98% percent demand cheap food be provided to them - the one asking the farmer to stop producing food is the fool.  Do you grow all of your own food?  Are you willing to grow food for not only yourself, but 50 other people?  Are you willing to pay 1/2 of your paycheck to buy food like people in other countries?  If not, then you have no room to complain.

But when sprays drift from his property to yours or mine, it is no longer an individual issue - it now involves a group of people.

Spray drift is a minimal issue.  You don't spray when it is windy.

Spray drift is not what kills hives.

Your arguments fall into the category of FUD - fear, uncertainty, and doubt.  Following your logic, you might kill someone with your car, shoot someone, stab someone, or commit any number of crimes.  We should just throw you in jail to protect everyone else.

Assuming it didn't run off into streams it would still leach into the water table and from there it goes hundreds of miles.


What about rainwater?  Far more water is contaminated by naturally occurring chemical compounds than agricultural sprays.  You do know why the oceans are salty, right?

Yesterday my local bee club had a beginner beekeepers class.  I stood off to the side and shook my head no almost the entire time the bee inspector was giving his talk.  He is completely misinformed, and trying to justify his $18 an hour, unlimited hour job.  For example, he was going on about how much of a problem small hive beetles are, and I finally spoke up and asked him if we had SHB in our county - he sheepishly admitted that SHB has never been found here.  Then he started going on about how much of a problem foulbrood was, until I spoke up and asked him how often he has found foulbrood. (once, and he wasn't positive it was fb)  Once again, he sheepishly admitted that foulbrood is 'not very often'.  Then he was talkign about how feeding essential oils to bees coats the varroa mites with the oils and suffocates the mites.  (Anyone see the BS in that?)
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T Beek
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« Reply #92 on: February 14, 2011, 07:51:42 AM »

During these times of reducing State, County, Federal services, this position seems like a good place to begin the elimination process.  The "last" thing any Beek needs is Mis-informed "experts" giving talks on subjects they know litlle to nothing about. 

Thanks for standing up and speaking out at your meeting  X:XCountryboy.  Wish it happened more often.

thomas
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Acebird
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« Reply #93 on: February 14, 2011, 08:32:47 AM »

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Do you grow all of your own food?
Not yet.

We bought a ½ cow and ¼ pig pasture raised.  Our garden provides about 40% of the vegetables we eat.  We are just learning.  When we get better I am sure we will hit 80-90%.  Right now our food costs have gone down not up.  When we reach the 80% mark our food bill will be much cheaper that buying Big AG crap.  You are the one trying to instill fear and twisted economics.  My guess is you will be running for Congress next.

Poisons are poisons.  I don’t care if they blow over to your neighbors yard upon application or not.  Eventually they will get there.  They are also absorbed by the plant that you eat from the first application on.  Each application increases the dosage.
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« Reply #94 on: February 14, 2011, 09:18:17 AM »

I can be a real pain in the arse when it comes to 'homegrown' food preaching.  I'm constantly telling those I love and like to plant/grow bigger gardens and at least try saving "some" seeds.  The usual response is that 'its too hard' which is simply pitiful, and this is from alleged "country" folks.  I guess that despite all the complaining, we're not suffering quite bad enough yet Wink

If one believes in such things, its easy to assume that our ancestors are spinning their graves and our future generations will likely condemn us (and not just because we've collectively forgotten how to wildcraft, grow or kill our own food).

thomas
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« Reply #95 on: February 14, 2011, 10:05:37 AM »

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The usual response is that 'its too hard' which is simply pitiful, and this is from alleged "country" folks.


For most people it is too hard, but you can always buy from someone else that does it right.  Then you got big Ag telling everybody that good real food is expensive.

The real economics is what does it cost for health care when you ingest, corn, growth hormones, pesticides and chemical fertilizers all your life as opposed to what your body really needs to be healthy.  And what would it cost (globally) if most of your food came from local sources where you didn’t have to burn fuel to ship it thousands of miles from where it grows.  The whole economic thing is a smoke screen.
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« Reply #96 on: February 14, 2011, 12:06:03 PM »

If the Obama Administration ever makes good on its rhetoric, ending the subsidies provided to the gas and oil industry (Health 'Insurance' industry would be a good elimination starting point too, and I think we're close, now that the disaster that was passed has been fully exposed as a 'gift' to said industry), and we see $10.00 plus gas prices, it may finally motivate the paradigm (evolutionary?) shift and changes in our culture that are required for our future survival, transitioning from mass consuming crap to producing local goods and food, due to direct need and expense.

Of course, I've been waiting/preparing for all this to happen since the 70s, so.......... Wink, we'll see. 

Like I said, we're just not that uncomfortable yet; see EGYPT Smiley despite all the complaining.  It would do most Americans some good to leave this Country for a bit in order to get some idea of what the rest of the planet is doing.  Just a thought and I'm certain its quite OFF TOPIC grin Sorry.

thomas 
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kathyp
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« Reply #97 on: February 14, 2011, 01:12:24 PM »

i don't disagree that we have lost the ability to do for ourselves.  it is unfortunate, but the cost of not having readily available food it not in fuel, it's lives.  

last year i put in the large garden as usual.  our weather was so crappy that i got nothing more than a few tomatoes and some peppers.  everything else was either stunted, or rotted.  the squash didn't even mature.  if our only source of food had been the garden, we would have starved to death.  then there is the problem of protein.  raising meat is expensive and if you don't have land, you are not going to be able to do it.  the exception would be poultry, but if that's going to be your meat source, you need to raise a bunch of birds.  if you are going to do that, you need to have a lot of freezer space.

the cost of fuel is driving up the cost of even small farming.  unless you have 5 or 6 kids who drop out of school to farm, doing it by hand is a pretty tough prospect.

 you have the problem of regulations.  if you don't live in a rural area, good luck raising what you need.  never mind that you  need lots of space to be self sufficient, you town or council probably won't let you do what you need to raise meat and even tear up you property to properly raise veggies.  the old victory gardens would not happen in a HOA.

the idea that higher fuel costs will modify our behavior is true.  it's just not a modification that anyone would like.  higher fuel cost impact cost of everything, not just food. it's also worth considering that we a healthier (if not fatter) because we have a wide variety of food to choose from.  the importing and exporting of food has no doubt contributed to the longer life spans we have enjoyed over the last 100 years.

be careful what you wish for...you may get your wish to "be uncomfortable".
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #98 on: February 14, 2011, 03:39:59 PM »

Fortunately for me, my present comfort level is already uncomfortable for the majority. 

I'm ready for $10.00 gas 'today' KathyP  Smiley(turning this computer into a door stop wouldn't bother me much either) and despite farming/gardening in a climate with a 90 something day (last to first frost) growing season we've always produced an excess, so trucks/ships being unable to bring me tomato's in January won't disrupt my routine a bit.

Comfort is really just a state of mind anyway.

thomas
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Acebird
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« Reply #99 on: February 14, 2011, 03:45:15 PM »

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the importing and exporting of food has no doubt contributed to the longer life spans we have enjoyed over the last 100 years.

Not in this country.  The longer life spans we use to enjoy was a result of an easier lifestyle
AND affordable healthcare.  Lifespans are decreasing now due to what is being put in commercial food, the lack of physical exercise AND that healthcare is no longer affordable on an individual basis so people go without.  It has absolutely nothing to do with importing food in this country.  I think in Japan's case importing food from this country has decreased their lifespan also.

Quote
last year i put in the large garden as usual.  our weather was so crappy that i got nothing more than a few tomatoes and some peppers.


If you suffer a loss with a bee hive do you quit?

Not everyone has to produce their own food.  But to say you have to taint the food to make a profit is pure hogwash.  The difference between organically grown and non organically grown is 10% or less in yields.  So where's the beef?
Some of the big farms today are not producing food anymore they are producing fuel with a net energy loss.  Does that make sense?
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