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Author Topic: Forced Inspections???  (Read 10057 times)
HBW1412
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« Reply #60 on: February 10, 2011, 12:53:09 PM »

T Beek - You are right about this particular post belonging in the Coffee House now.  When I originally started this thread I wanted to know if anyone knew if I had to have my hives inspected.  I expressed my dislike if that was the case.

Its now turned into a "coffee house" discussion about political views.  This was not my intention.  I was given a link to a site maintained my the State of Virginia concerning bees and I was happy with that.

It is now apparent that there are some beekeepers that want "social justice" and therefore, socialism to take a strong hold in this nation.  It's sad.
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VolunteerK9
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« Reply #61 on: February 10, 2011, 12:53:29 PM »


After four years of working for the DOD I wised up and quit.  Now I make a decent living as a farrier, blacksmith, custom sawmiller, small farmer and breeder of belgian draft horses. 


I worked as a LEO for 8 years before I quit and became a Certified Journeyman Farrier through the AFA. Swore I would never be back, but two kids later, I'm right back where I started in LE looking forward to retirement. I raised draft mules with my Belgian and Percheron mares and have a huge collection of horse drawn equipment that I used here around the farm. The similarities are scary huh?.





That's why the Tea Party has had such an impact.  

Enlighten me. I'm not calling you out, not drawing a line in the sand, just enlighten me on what the Tea Party has done to right the wrongs of 200+ years of free market capitalism. I think all of politics is crap. Repub's , Demo's, Libs , Tea party, whatever. They all have an agenda with favors to return and money to be made.
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T Beek
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« Reply #62 on: February 10, 2011, 01:09:23 PM »

Oh boy, here we go pop

thomas
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"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."
AR Beekeeper
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« Reply #63 on: February 10, 2011, 01:15:21 PM »

Back to the question of having manditory inspections, I believe the solution to beekeeping problems is not found in regulations but in having beekeepers that are well educated in their craft.  Money spent on inspections would probably be better spent on classes to teach beekeepers how to conduct inspections and how to identify and treat bee diseases.
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VolunteerK9
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« Reply #64 on: February 10, 2011, 01:16:09 PM »

Oh boy, here we go pop

thomas

Naw...I'll be good, I promise grin  



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HBW1412
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« Reply #65 on: February 10, 2011, 01:27:46 PM »

VolunteerK9 - I figured you were in law enforcement.  You have that mentality.  If you want to know what the Tea Party has done just look at the last election.  After being in office for only ONE MONTH I can only say that I expect great things to come.  Like doing away with Obamacare.

I'm glad you raise draft animals and use horse drawn implements.  I hope it becomes more popular.  Do you come to Danny Wards in November for the Farriers Conference?  If so, we've probably met.  Farriers, like beekeepers are a great bunch of folks even though they have different political views.  I have no harsh feelings toward anyone who has disagreed with me.  I think it's good to discuss things.  

T Beek - You didn't think I was going to go into attack mode did you?    grin LOL

AR Beekeeper - Beekeeping classes on how to conduct an inspection is a great idea as long as they were voluntary.  I'd certainly attend.
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HBW1412
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« Reply #66 on: February 10, 2011, 01:29:41 PM »

VolunteerK9 - You wouldn't happen to have a horse drawn loose hay loader do you?  It's the only thing I don't have and finding one in good condition has proven difficult. 
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jdnewberry
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« Reply #67 on: February 10, 2011, 01:32:14 PM »

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jdnewberry - You only came to terms with what your state requires because they said come to terms with it, OR ELSE.  Has it dawned on anyone that everytime we are FORCED to register something wheather its guns or bees that we give up a little piece of our privacy?  It seems that the majority of those of you that have commented on this post either don't mind that fact or you WANT to give up your GOD given right to privacy.

That's not entirely correct.  Today, 16 years after I started beekeeping, I could still have my hives unregistered and the government would say nothing about it.  Nobody has the time or desire to drive through the countryside looking for beehives just to check a map to see if they've been registered.  The benefits to the beekeeper FAR outweigh the inconvenience.  

The major benefit to me, the reason I will always register my apiaries, is pesticides.  I very nearly lost two of my three hives just four months after I started beekeeping due to pesticide poisoning.  Since I registered with the state, I've not suffered a loss.  I'm notified anytime a farmer plans on spraying near my hives allowing me to protect my investment.

I agree that the government has overstepped it's bounds in many situations and has regulated TOO MANY things to the point where they are out of reach for the average citizen, but I think you've missed the points we're trying to make here...  The government only cares about your bees if:
     1) You are selling bees and or queens that were produced in DISEASED hives
     2) You are maintaining DISEASED hives which are infecting other hives within your forage area
     3) You are producing and selling more than 5,000 lbs of honey per year (FDA)
     4) You are transporting DISEASED or PEST-RIDDEN hives across some sort of boundary, be it political or natural.

As an organic farmer, you are probably more aware of non-native garden pests than most of us other folks.  these pests were imported and transported by some means, whatever it may have been.  The same goes for SHB, varroa mites, tracheal mites, fire ants, EFB, etc...  Properly inspecting a hive before moving it to another location is a trait of a bee "KEEPER", not a bee "HAVER."  Not only will it protect your future apiary from these pests, but it will also protect your fellow beekeepers in the area.  If the inspector finds these pests, he's not going to say fix this issue "or else," he'll offer to assist in fixing the issue.  If you decide to move the hive anyway, there is not going to be a cop stationed down the road watching for hives on the move...

It works the other way, too.  Let's say that someone else decides to relocate an apiary in your forage area.  It could be infected with any number of pests or diseases.  If they lost a hive to AFB and did not destroy that hive, your bees could potentially find the empty hive and rob the infected honey for their own use, thus infecting your hive.  Every time you replaced your bees, they could suffer exactly the same fate until the other situation is corrected.  If they transported fire ants, too, you will soon have them as well.  Just because you are a prudent and knowledgeable bee "keeper" doesn't mean that your neighbors are as well.

Looking back at the AFB situation, this is probably the only situation where you might suffer an inspection in the real world.  If you and your fellow beekeepers in the area suddenly start suffering losses from AFB and report the losses to the state apiculturist, that alerts them that there is a serious issue that must be fixed.  They'll start inspecting apiaries in the area in an attempt to locate the source of the problem.  If that infected hive happens to be registered, it will be destroyed as a measure to protect your own hives.  If you suffer those AFB losses and never report them to the government, they may never know of the issue and you could continue to suffer losses - worse still, a major outbreak could ensue, endangering every honey bee in your region.  I admit that this is not a likely scenario, but an example of the importance if hive registration.

Years ago Langstroth hives were mandated in many states because of the ease of inspection.  This made all other hives such as "bee gums" illegal.  In recent years Top Bar hives have increased in popularity because it allows the bees to create a more natural nest and possibly allows them to maintain better health.  The people who maintain Top Bar hives still have them inspected.  The government DOES NOT force them to switch to the legal Langstroth hive.  They have too many other things to worry about.  As long as everything is well maintained and reasonably healthy, they could care less.

The governments goal here is to protect the bees we already have, educate the public about bees and ENCOURAGE more people to get into beekeeping.  70% of our food supply is dependent on the honey bee.  If the bees go away, so does our food.  the responsible bee "KEEPER" has nothing to worry about from hive registration.  You will likely never even see an inspector unless you call one yourself.  In 16 years, I've never had an inspection that I didn't ASK for personally.  The irresponsible bee "HAVER" doesn't have anything to fear from inspections either...  Worst case scenario, if an inspection happens and AFB is found, the INFECTED hive is destroyed.  If the inspection were to find mites or beetles, they would merely suggest a treatment.  It only serves to improve your bees' health and productivity, enhancing the benefits your hives provide.  

No one will EVER say that you are NOT ALLOWED to own bees.  No one will EVER take them from you.  No one will EVER mandate a treatment regiment for your bees.  There is only a MINUTE chance that you will ever be inspected unless you ask for it on your own.  If you are an informed and knowledgeable bee "KEEPER" and get inspected, There is only a MINUTE chance that an issue will be found.  If an issue is found, there is only a MINUTE chance that a hive will be destroyed.

There is a STRONG chance that one of the crops in your area will be sprayed this year.  If your bees are using that crop as forage, there is a STRONG chance that you will suffer a pesticide related loss.  If your hives are not registered, there is a STRONG chance that you will never be informed of the pesticide application.

Registration is a VALUABLE SERVICE that is being provided FREE OF CHARGE.  It was never meant to be a hindrance or inconvenience.  If you choose not to take advantage of this service, it's you're prerogative, but 99% of the bee "KEEPERS" out there will sing the praises of hive registration.

In short, I came to terms with registration because I recognized the benefit of doing so.  I have never given up my right to privacy, because my privacy has never been invaded.  My bees are NOT being policed, nor am I being policed.  I have my hives inspected before transport, not because I'm forced to, but to protect my fellow beekeepers from unwanted pests and diseases.  If I have a question that I don't know the answer to, I take advantage of the free service that is being offered to me so that I might become a better, more informed beekeeper.

Register or don't register....  your choice.  After seeing the benefits, I for one will ALWAYS register.
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T Beek
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« Reply #68 on: February 10, 2011, 01:35:34 PM »

AR Beekeeper:  I don't know, seems to me after reading this thread that most of the "Inspectors" mentioned receive little in compensation, if anything, unless they are employed by the State.  For the most part their concern and interest seems focused on keeping bees alive and healthy rather than "inspecting" for a living.  That's what I've gotten from the discusion anyway (in between all the blather and smoke, that is (thanx Captain Beefheart)).

Maybe what beeks "really" need is an active and viable (State Sponsored or Beek sponsored?) Mentorship Program for beekeepers, with members who are also qualified to perform inspections AND provide assistance as needed.  I've heard some horror stories of "know-nothing" inspectors with too much power, so a well-rounded beek background would be mandatory.  

Sorry, I have a farmers mind and I love planting seeds. HMmmmm

thomas
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VolunteerK9
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« Reply #69 on: February 10, 2011, 01:56:45 PM »

VolunteerK9 - You wouldn't happen to have a horse drawn loose hay loader do you?  It's the only thing I don't have and finding one in good condition has proven difficult.  

Nope, but you could write this guy a letter and he's not that far from you.  I've bought two truckloads of stuff from him. I'm a big John Deere fan and it was hard to find JD horse drawn equipment until I found his card in a Rural Heritage magazine. (I bought a 1 horse JD turning plow with a cast beam that still had the mfg's sticker on the plow handles) He's an Amishman, not an antique collector so the stuff works when you buy it.

*edited by me-I'll PM you his info. Posting it here might be a faux pas


It's been a while since Ive been there, but if he still has anything to sell, its worth the trip.
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Acebird
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« Reply #70 on: February 10, 2011, 02:46:50 PM »

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EXAMPLES OF GOVERNMENT SYSTEMS THAT DO NOT WORK

US CONGRESS


I'll make one exception to that.  It is working pretty darn good for the rotten !@#$&* that are part of the club.

Quote
MY land is MINE.


Until the Indians organize their own tea party and use our right of ownership laws to take it back legally.  And then you got squat.
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #71 on: February 10, 2011, 04:14:31 PM »

Quote
Years ago Langstroth hives were mandated in many states because of the ease of inspection.  This made all other hives such as "bee gums" illegal.  In recent years Top Bar hives have increased in popularity because it allows the bees to create a more natural nest and possibly allows them to maintain better health.  The people who maintain Top Bar hives still have them inspected.  The government DOES NOT force them to switch to the legal Langstroth hive.  They have too many other things to worry about.  As long as everything is well maintained and reasonably healthy, they could care less.

The government won't complain about top bar hives because the frames are removable.  That's why Langstroth style hives were required, when the disease and inspection laws were enacted.  Removeable hives were necessary to insure a thorough inspection.
As long as a hive has removable frames they are in compliance with laws requiring inspection for diseases, and even if Langstroth hives are cited by statute a court is most likely to find langstroth type/style hives have removable frames and are therefore legal.

As a side note, neither judges nor attorneys instruct juries in one of their basic legal options; that of determining whether or not a law is even applicable, badly crafted and voided, or if it is even constitutional.  Yes, that's right, Juries, as well as judges have the legal authority to deem a law unconstitutional.  Juries can throw out laws as being to restrictive, overreaching authority, to intrusive, etc., all under the framework of ajudicating a case in law.
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Life is a school.  What have you learned?   Brian      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!
HBW1412
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« Reply #72 on: February 10, 2011, 04:36:18 PM »

Brian D. Bray - You are right.  Juries do have the right to find a law unconstitutional.  It's called Jury Nullification.  If you are ever called for jury Duty and don't want to "serve" just say the words "Jury Nullification" and you will be immediately excused.

Personally, I feel that every jury should be informed of this power, but attorneys and judges HATE jury nullification because it gives power to the people.
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jdnewberry
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« Reply #73 on: February 10, 2011, 04:47:50 PM »

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to make any judgements against you for not wanting to register your apiary.  I completely understand your position on privacy and private land.  One of my apiaries is on land that my family has been on since the 1730's.  It's our land and nobody else has any right to it...  I just want you to weigh the benefits against any objections you have so that you can make an informed choice.

Here is an idea I just had.  Find a local beekeeping association and go to a meeting or two.  You don't even have to join or tell them that you already have bees.  Ask these questions to people that have had bees in your area for years and see what they have to say about the local inspectors and guidelines.  I think that may be a far more valuable tool than listening to me ramble on...  After all, I don't have any experiences in Virginia - only Tennessee and Colorado.
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hardwood
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« Reply #74 on: February 10, 2011, 05:01:12 PM »

jd, can you put your location in your profile please? I never knew where you hail from until now and as of that last post I've narrowed it down to either Tennessee or Colorado Smiley

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"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

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jdnewberry
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« Reply #75 on: February 10, 2011, 05:06:21 PM »

jd, can you put your location in your profile please? I never knew where you hail from until now and as of that last post I've narrowed it down to either Tennessee or Colorado Smiley

Done...  Sorry...  I got so caught up in all these interesting topics that I never even looked at the options available!
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Rosalind
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« Reply #76 on: February 10, 2011, 06:54:49 PM »

Acebird - I don't know what your family history is and how far your roots go back on the land you own, but the land I now own has been in my family for nearly 200 years.  I love MY land.  It is MINE.


Quote
One of my apiaries is on land that my family has been on since the 1730's.  It's our land and nobody else has any right to it... 

My cousins have been on the family farm since 1706 AND they got a receipt from the Susquehannocks who used to own it!  Brian Nyah-nyah!  grin Nevertheless, nobody minds much when the state inspector drops by for a visit. Since our family has been farming so long, and is fairly diligent about passing information down the generations, the ag inspector often learns a thing or two from us. Maybe because everyone and their brother seems to want to trespass on farm land? We have no end of free-range children running about wrecking crops, neighbors' cows that were unimpressed by non-electric fencing, random tourists trying to climb a fence into a bull paddock to pet the cute cow, inebriated hunters who fire at anything that moves whether it has horns or no, bratty teenagers shooting BB guns at livestock...

I think it varies from state to state. Some ag inspectors are just not very good, or are tools of the local agribusiness. Every time I hear a complaint from an organic farmer, a grass-pasturing cattle rancher, a small local producer getting shut down, it always seems to be in a state that has a healthy mega-agribusiness of some sort or other. Of which Virginia has several, by the by--Perdue, Smithfield, several others are out your way. Although Massachusetts is known for being the nanny state to end all nanny states in the US, we have lots of healthy smallholdings here, and the worst thing I can say about our Dept. of Ag. is that they can be slooooow to respond when there is a problem. I found it was much faster, when I had sick chickens, to run them to a private vet than to wait for the inspector guy to call back. Maybe because there are few mega-businesses and lots of small businesses here compared to other parts of the country? Don't know.
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« Reply #77 on: February 10, 2011, 07:14:36 PM »

Granted there are a lot of good inspectors out there, and I'll even say most.   But until you have a bad one, you don't have any appreciation how costly it can be.   My family was put out of business back in the 70s by an inspector that felt we where encroaching too much on his families honey business and took it upon himself to declare many of our yards to have AFB and burned them without even notifying us before hand. Nothing like driving into yard after yard and only finding piles of coals.  We also found out through the grapevine that many hobbyist had hives confiscated (and would be destroyed) due to AFB.   After we started putting the pieces together, it was obvious he wasn't destroying them but increasing his hive counts.  So needless to say, I have no use for mandatory inspections and am please that NY just de-funded their inspection program, or at list in our region.

Also,  a good many operations have hidden yards to handle their problems themselves.

I have no problem with having inspectors and having people request visits,  but anything beyond that and I'm no longer a beekeeper.
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Countryboy
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« Reply #78 on: February 10, 2011, 09:08:00 PM »

Registration's primary benefit for the beekeeper is with the pesticide issue.

Registration in Ohio won't help you with pesticide issues.

According to the State Inspector, to be protected here, you have to put a sign up by the road with clear directions to the location of your beeyard with contact information, and you have to have a sign up at the beeyard with your contact information.

But if that sign isn't up and visible at the road for everyone to see, folks can spray whatever they want with no advance notification.

For some reason beekeepers here think a sign like that is inviting more trouble for us than if we just kept quite and let folks spray.
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jdnewberry
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« Reply #79 on: February 10, 2011, 10:05:59 PM »

Quote
For some reason beekeepers here think a sign like that is inviting more trouble for us than if we just kept quite and let folks spray.

I agree.  All of my hives are at out-apiaries now.  They don't have a "protector" living on the same property.  For that reason, no hive is visible from the road.  I know that I may sound a little paranoid, but in the country there is very little entertainment.  Vandalism is the national pastime for people that lack a good source of entertainment.  If it were common knowledge where each hive was located, the vandals would have new targets instead of the old, worn-out mailboxes.

Believe it or not, theft can also be an issue.  It's very rare, but does happen.  I have my hives on permanent wooden hive stands.  The bottom boards are screwed to the hive stand from underneath, and the brood box is stapled to the bottom board.  Not fool-proof, but at least it's a discouragement.

Quote
Registration in Ohio won't help you with pesticide issues.

Really?! What good does registering you hives do?  What's your motivation?
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