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Author Topic: Forced Inspections???  (Read 9550 times)
iddee
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« Reply #40 on: February 09, 2011, 08:26:05 PM »

Thanks, Kathy.
I also see that he is still fighting it. They have rezoned his land so he can continue to raise his garden. Now he just has to get the fines dropped. I think in the end, he will get that done.

Hopefully, when he does, he can sue for his attorney fees to be paid by the county.

I do have to agree, that is a case of government gone bad.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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bailey
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« Reply #41 on: February 09, 2011, 09:29:31 PM »

my state requires inspections on all queen and bee producers.

i knew i wanted to sell nucs this year so i requested inspection and got one the next week.
the guy was nice,knowledgable, and efficent with the handling of my hives.

he commented on the various hives and all of it was good.
at the end of the inspection ( which is only for foul brood they say ) the inspector said all was great and my hives looked better and were in better shape than his were.

i thanked the man and went back home knowing i am free of most all nasty critters that they would look for.

he did point out 2 bees that showed deformed wing problems and attributed that to mites but thats all he found.

now i can sell queens and nucs openly without being in violation of any laws.
ill take that trade.
its no worse than the regulations that i work under in my real job as a nurse.
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most often i find my greatest source of stress to be OPS  ( other peoples stupidity )

It is better to keep ones mouth shut and be thought of as a fool than to open ones mouth and in so doing remove all doubt.
Countryboy
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« Reply #42 on: February 09, 2011, 09:43:49 PM »

I am a big fan of limited government.  I believe what you do on your own land, provided it is voluntary and not fraudulent is fine.  In essence, do what you want as long as you don't infringe the rights of others.

Of all government regulations, I can see the point of bee inspectors a little better than most, but I still have my reservations.  Your bees don't respect property boundaries or property rights, so I can kind of see their point.  However, regulations do nothing about feral hives which results in the laws being inconsistently applied to only your hives.

Bee inspections were originally started due to AFB outbreaks after beekeepers started using movable frame hives.  When folks were using gums and skeps, foulbrood was a rare and minor nuisance.

Back in the 1940's, there were twice as many hives in the US as there are now.  Most hives back then were managed by let-alone hobbyists.  Diseases could quickly get out of control because people were not paying attention to their hives.  Now, if you don't exercise a more involved from of management, your bees will die off from something else usually.  If there is a problem, people seem to notice it quicker now, and can get it nipped in the bud.
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jdnewberry
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« Reply #43 on: February 09, 2011, 10:31:54 PM »

Here in Tennessee, we're required by law to register our hives.  I'm not a fan of government either, but have no problem with the bee inspectors.  I have never run across an inspector in this state that is not 100% qualified for the job.  I've had bees here since 1995 and have never had a "mandatory" inspection of one of my apiaries, though I have called the state to look at a few things I had questions with.  As much as I dislike "big government" and regulation of what I consider a hobby, I came to terms with the fact that my state is neither "big government" nor intent on making my life difficult with lots of time-wasting nonsense and red tape.  I think Virginia would probably be similar.  Here in the south, there are lots of people like us who would rather just be left alone and consider our private property just that...  PRIVATE.  My state understands that and has afforded me all of the peace and privacy I desire.

I can't think of any state that has the goal of regulating the hobbyist.  Their goals are to track the movement of pests such as SHB and imported fire ants, as well as prevent the spread of devastating diseases such as AFB.  Protecting the bees from pesticides is quite a nice benefit, too!  I register my apiaries every two years and only need to give minimal information such as location, number of hives and honey flow info.  If I lost any hives at that location during the previous period, I list that as well.  It helps the state keep track of things like CCD, AFB outbreaks, mites, bee paralysis virus, pesticide poisoning, etc...  They don't use the information to regulate me, but use it to track the spread of disease, make general assessments of the state of the health of bees in TN, and protect them from pesticide related losses.

I suppose that if the state NEEDED to do an inspection, I would be notified by phone first (another benefit of having the hives registered).  The only scenario I can think of that might require that would be an outbreak of AFB or something similar that MUST be contained and destroyed immediately.  A knowledgeable and informed beekeeper whom regularly inspects his hives is an asset to the state.  A simple conversation may be all that is needed, but if an inspection is absolutely required, it, in most cases, will move briskly if everything is in order.  I would not discourage the inspector from coming in such a situation just in case they can spot something I've missed.  I would rather burn one hive than have to burn an entire apiary.

Registration's primary benefit for the beekeeper is with the pesticide issue.  Honey bees have quite a range when there is a nectar dearth.  I seem to recall hearing it was up to 8 miles!  That equates to a possible forage area of 201 square miles, or almost 130,000 acres!  Anybody in the forage area with a pesticide certificate is notified that I have bees and they contact me when they plan on spraying.  It saves my bees which, in turn, help their crops.  It's a win-win situation for both of us.

I do keep bees in three different counties and do move hives between the apiaries from time to time.  In TN hives must be inspected before you cross county lines with them.  It's not a big deal, only takes about 15-20 mins and is completely free.  They're mainly looking for imported fire ants, SHB and the like.  I find it helpful since I actually have fire ants in one of my apiaries and REALLY don't want to move them to either of my others. 

As a side note, inspections aren't always conducted by the state here...  Many members of our local associations have taken the inspection courses and can inspect your hives at your request.  They can issue health certificates if you plan on crossing county or state lines with the hives, or simply swing by and offer a little help when you need it.

As far as for your scenario with the hive burning, here in TN, ONLY the infected hives are burned.  You would want to do that anyway.  Even if you soaked you equipment in bleach and dipped it in hot wax, the next colony will still probably end up becoming infected and having to be destroyed, too.  The sooner the INFECTED hives are destroyed, the better odds your other hives have of avoiding the disease.  The reason the State Apiculturist exists is to protect the bees and help insure their survival, not to destroy healthy bees.
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iddee
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« Reply #44 on: February 09, 2011, 10:41:54 PM »

 applause applause applause applause cheer
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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jdnewberry
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« Reply #45 on: February 09, 2011, 10:59:45 PM »

As a side note to my rather lengthy post above, when I started beekeeping in 1995, I knew nothing about registering my hives.  I didn't join the local beekeeping association, but read "The Hive and the Honey Bee" from cover to cover.  I felt that I was armed with knowledge fairly well and purchased my bees and equipment.  My hives did extremely well for about 4 months before they suffered a serious decline in population all of a sudden.   I made some phone calls and found out that one of my old college professors was the state apiculturist and, lucky for me, he only lived about 20 minutes away.

I called Dr. Skinner and explained my issues.  He ASKED if he could come take a look.  I agreed and he came by later that afternoon.  He looked at the hives, collected some dead and sick bees, and took them back to his office for testing.  Within a couple of days he informed me that it was pesticide poisoning and that simply registering my hives would have avoided the loss.  I have not had a pesticide related loss since!
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applebwoi
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« Reply #46 on: February 09, 2011, 11:26:11 PM »

I had a hive in my back yard die quickly this past fall and suspect it was a result of pesticides, possibly applied by the city to control mosquitoes.  I wonder if I registered my hives if I would have trouble from the city or if they might not have fogged insecticide down my alley?  First loss like this in town since I began beekeeping in 2006.
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jdnewberry
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« Reply #47 on: February 09, 2011, 11:38:45 PM »

Since none of my apiaries are in the city, I've never dealt with mosquito fogging.  My suspicion, though, is that they would have called you in advance.  When someone in my area is spraying pesticides, I get a phone call a couple of days in advance. 

My solution to the problem is a screened entrance and a screened inner cover or moving screen.  I either show up the night before or morning of the application date and close up the hive entrances with screen.  It must be done when the bees are in the hive or some will just get trapped outside.  After the spraying is completed, I open everything back up and all is right with the world again.  The bees don't like being cooped up when it's nice outside, but at least they're all still alive!

Brushy Mountain Bee Farm sells both items at a reasonable price.  I imagine that there may be a source closer to you with similar products and prices.  $20-$25 per hive is cheap considering the price of bees these days.
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yantabulla
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« Reply #48 on: February 10, 2011, 01:40:55 AM »

I just wanted to say that this is one of most entertaining threads I have ever read!
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HBW1412
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« Reply #49 on: February 10, 2011, 08:01:16 AM »

jdnewberry - You only came to terms with what your state requires because they said come to terms with it, OR ELSE.  Has it dawned on anyone that everytime we are FORCED to register something wheather its guns or bees that we give up a little piece of our privacy?  It seems that the majority of those of you that have commented on this post either don't mind that fact or you WANT to give up your GOD given right to privacy.

I think bee inspectors are more than likely a really great bunch of folks who I'd probably really like and get along well with.  My issue isn't with them personally.  My issue is with any government agency FORCING citizens of the United States to do anything.  I believe we, as citizens, are much more capable of policing ourselves.  I do not believe we need our government to do that for us.  

Doesn't everyone here think we could police ourselves.  Look at the comments that have been left on beemaster.com.  We are an intelligent bunch of folks.  The comments as a whole are intelligent, well written and yes, entertaining.
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Acebird
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« Reply #50 on: February 10, 2011, 08:09:02 AM »

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Since none of my apiaries are in the city, I've never dealt with mosquito fogging.


And they do this Why? huh

Now that everyone is afraid of bird flue from Asia?  It is the pesticides that should be outlawed not bee keeping or back yard farming.
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Acebird
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« Reply #51 on: February 10, 2011, 08:28:21 AM »

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I believe we, as citizens, are much more capable of policing ourselves.

What a dreamer.  We live in an "all for me" society today.

We all have a right to privacy but when your actions affect my lifestyle you need a government for the people not for the private individual.  At one time we had all the freedoms and if you didn't like what your neighbor was doing you just went over and shot him.  Then one of his would come over and shoot one of yours.  And then again, and then again etc.  Is that what you want?  I think that is how the rule of the land in Afghanistan works.
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HBW1412
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« Reply #52 on: February 10, 2011, 08:37:57 AM »

Acebird -  Pesticides are way over used.  I agree.  Several years ago the power company used a helicopter to spray the powerline right of way with herbicides.  Everything on my farm is organic.  I never use pesticides or fertilizers on anything.  Needless to say I was irate.  

I called the power company and they said it was standard practice and they had the right to do it.  There was no need for it though.  I keep the powerline right of way planted with lespadeza, for my horses, the quail and deer and for me just to look at.  I finally hired an attorney to deal with the power company.  They no longer spray herbicide on my farm and I had that part of the powerline removed and the power company no longer has a right of way there.  I paid to have the line buried right in the middle of my driveway.  Now, the power companies right of way ends at my driveway entrance.  It cost me thousands of dollars and two years to fight this, but it was worth it.

If I had registered my farm previously as an organic farm they still would have sprayed.  I would have lost the organic designation because of them.  In a letter that I still have, they say they had the right to spray because they had rights to the property.  They didn't care about my organic methods and would not have called me if I had registered.  Pesticides and genetically modified foods are a pet peeve of mine.  Don't get me started on Monsanto.  Their ties go all the way to the Supreme Court.

As far as me being a dreamer...  Not hardly.  It is you who don't give the people enough credit.  Get rid of the Government intrusion and WE THE PEOPLE will work it out.  We just have a different belief system and that's ok.  In the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter.
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iddee
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« Reply #53 on: February 10, 2011, 09:15:36 AM »

As in many discussions, half are saying 6 and the other half are saying a half dozen.

Both sides are correct. The government needs to be able to control to an extent, but there is a file line between what is good and what is too much or too little. That is why most of the government works on a reaction basis. Leave things alone until there is a problem then act. There are pros and cons with that method, but it is what we have.

You don't want them burning your hives, yet at the same time, you don't want them to allow me to raise AFB in hives a mile down the road from you for "research purposes", or any other reason.

There will always be a struggle to find the desired balance.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
VolunteerK9
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« Reply #54 on: February 10, 2011, 10:43:52 AM »

jdnewberry - You only came to terms with what your state requires because they said come to terms with it, OR ELSE.  Has it dawned on anyone that everytime we are FORCED to register something wheather its guns or bees that we give up a little piece of our privacy?  It seems that the majority of those of you that have commented on this post either don't mind that fact or you WANT to give up your GOD given right to privacy.

I think bee inspectors are more than likely a really great bunch of folks who I'd probably really like and get along well with.  My issue isn't with them personally.  My issue is with any government agency FORCING citizens of the United States to do anything.  I believe we, as citizens, are much more capable of policing ourselves.  I do not believe we need our government to do that for us.  

Doesn't everyone here think we could police ourselves.  Look at the comments that have been left on beemaster.com.  We are an intelligent bunch of folks.  The comments as a whole are intelligent, well written and yes, entertaining.

It may just be me, but I think your making a mountain out of a mole hill. There are things that people do or not do everyday that is mandated by the Government for one reason or another. And no I don't think that people, beekeepers or not, should be allowed to police themselves and throw every law that exists out the window. Would you want to buy your spring packages from a AFB ridden producer? Nope, probably not, but if there wasn't MANDATORY inspections then you better believe that it would start popping up everywhere.  Do you want a truck load of good ole boys drinking all the cold beer that they can consume and crashing through a school zone? Probably not that either, that's why there are laws prohibiting that as well. Are there problems with our system? Absolutely. But I choose our current form of government any day versus our other choices. Naturally I have a strong opinion about this due to my career, but sometimes people seem to take things that are so simple too far.  We are talking about a bee inspection. That's it. No door kicking, gun grabbing, kids screaming in the background, "They came in dressed like ninjas with fully automatic weapons" News Channel 9  search warrant. It's a bee inspection only and I don't think it's any reason to go out and buy a copy of "The Turner Diaries" and bury a cache of ammo and MRE's.
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HBW1412
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« Reply #55 on: February 10, 2011, 11:08:21 AM »

VolunteerK9 - I started working for the Dept. of Defense just after 9/11 and NO it wasn't for the TSA.  I have seen government work its magic and I am not impressed.  You can insinuate that I'm a crazy, paranoid individual that takes things way too far, but something tells me that the same things were being said of the Founding Fathers during their day.  I am glad that the American people as a whole are finally starting to speak out about government interference, regardless of the good intentions the government claims.

After four years of working for the DOD I wised up and quit.  Now I make a decent living as a farrier, blacksmith, custom sawmiller, small farmer and breeder of belgian draft horses.  Now, I'm going to get into bees and after seeing what regulations have been imposed across this nation I have to tell you...

Me and a lot of other people are sick and tired of having to cut thru red tape that the government comes up with just so we can make a living.  Apparently, you work for a government agency of some sort so I do understand your point of view.  I've been there myself.  Most people work for a company and pay their taxes and just try to get by without bothering anyone.  That's fine, but for millions of people across this country that don't rely on someone else's American Dream (the companies most people work for) or our tax payer funded government to make a living, the regulations forced upon us are WAY to much.

That's why the Tea Party has had such an impact. 
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Acebird
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« Reply #56 on: February 10, 2011, 11:09:14 AM »

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I called the power company and they said it was standard practice and they had the right to do it.


Yeah, more of that "All for me" logic.

I think you went at them wrong.  They have a right of way and you should have acknowledge that.  What they don’t have is a right to pollute or destroy your land past the right of way line.  It should be specified exactly how many feet that right of way was on your deed.  The instant the herbicide crosses that line (and you know it will) they are liable for your losses.  It should have cost them not you.

We are combating the exact same problem with hydrofracking. 


Quote
In the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter
.

If you decide to sell out to an oil company are you going to care about the people around you?  I would rather doubt it.  Once you hit the lottery you are not going to look back.

This is one area that I have to agree with Kathy.  We have to make sure government is working for the people and not an individual entity.  Unfortunately, money is power.
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kathyp
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« Reply #57 on: February 10, 2011, 11:55:08 AM »

on this issue i am pretty much neutral on the govt.  it is the right of the state to require this if they wish.  i choose to avoid the state when i can.  if it were the feds doing it, i would not be neutral.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #58 on: February 10, 2011, 12:39:23 PM »

As someone said earlier, Wisconsin has no requirement to register Bees and we in Northern Wisconsin have no known such willing person to do inspections even if they were desired.  The closest known association/club is two hours away for me.

Back when I was a "dumber" beek than I am now, I used to wish for some gentle old beek to help me out with the steep and ever changing learning curve that goes with keeping bees.  Now after keeping bees for a while and meeting and talking with hundreds of beeks I'm no longer sure.  As someone else said, I worry about "Chemical Treatments" being forced on my bees if some inspector percieves something and demands some "correction" to my methods.  Or condemning my TBH or Long Hives (because they know little to nothing about their use).  I Wouldn't tolerate that I'm afraid, they'd be asked to leave.  

Perhaps if it was just a service that was provided on requst of the beek, I might go along with that I suppose.  For beginners, I think It would be very nice to have someone at the State level (if no local assistance is available), willing to travel North of Madison (a four hour drive, so not likely) to help them out.  It sure would save alot of bees I think.

My wife just reminded me of a USDA form we received a couple weeks ago (we used to truck farm, no more), one of the questions concerned bees and number of hives.  Anyone else out there receive one of these?  I'm pretty sure I lost mine Undecided.

EXAMPLES OF GOVERMENT SYSTEMS THAT WORK

USMC, Army, Navy, Air Force, Highways, streetlights, protections that keep our food, drugs, products, cities, towns, forests and waterways relatively safe (safer than they'd be w/out "anyone" watching) and our people educated (could use some improvement) and mostly out of "Calcutta style" poverty, etc......etc......(and most importantly, those systems keeping the rich rich, just kidding on that one, maybe, maybe not Wink)

EXAMPLES OF GOVERNMENT SYSTEMS THAT DO NOT WORK

US CONGRESS  

And I believe its gonna get worse (based on recent events) before it gets any better people, sorry.  My advise is for everyone to grow bigger gardens, but that's just me.  Everyones gonna do their own thing, kinda like Acebird said I guess. (I think parts of this thread belong on the Coffee House, a scary place indeed Wink)

thomas
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HBW1412
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« Reply #59 on: February 10, 2011, 12:43:42 PM »

Acebird - I don't know what your family history is and how far your roots go back on the land you own, but the land I now own has been in my family for nearly 200 years.  I love MY land.  It is MINE.  

In 1936 the power company paid my Great Grandmother $16.00 for the right to put powerlines on our property.  We are the last farm on the line.  The line didn't cross MY property, it ended on MY property.  Our land borders a large tract of publicly owned land and the power company only wanted the lines there because they thought the land ours borders was going to be developed.  It never was.  

Fast forward to 2004.  The power company sprays MY land with poison.  It is MY land.  Not the power companies.  Just because they HAD a right of way didn't mean they own the land.  That is a misconception that many people have.  It was a point of contention in court.  I won.  

My deed has now been recorded properly without the power companies right of way.  You know, the one they took advantage of a woman in 1936 paying only $16.00 to get.  MY land is MINE.  Do I have an "all for me" logic when it comes to MY land?  You bet I do.

Perhaps only those people that have had land passed down to them from one generation to the next can appreciate my point of view.  People like me LOVE the land we care for.  We will protect our land at ALL costs.

I know people like you don't like the fact that there are people like me out there blocking what you'd like to see become of the U.S.  Well, guess what - our numbers are growing.  We are finally speaking out against the "social justice" people like you are preaching.

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