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Author Topic: feeding milk  (Read 3840 times)
bullship
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« on: February 06, 2011, 03:58:45 PM »

Would it be good or even OK to feed milk products to bees in order to get acidophilus or lactobacillus into bees to help them fight cereana?
Milk or whey fed to poultry will prevent or cure cocidiosis a bloody stomach problem in young chickens
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Acebird
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« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2011, 06:23:12 PM »

What size bottle and nipple do you use?   grin
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« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2011, 09:11:18 PM »

If you don't treat them they naturally have very specific strains of lactobacillus and other things in their stomachs.  Here are a few of those:

Bifidobacterium animalis
Bifidobacterium asteroides
Bifidobacterium coryneforme
Bifidobacterium cuniculi
Bifidobacterium globosum
Lactobacillus plantarum

And other species that live there:
Bartonella sp.
Gluconacetobacter sp.
Simonsiella sp.

And these are just what live IN the bees.  There are thousands more than live in the hive.

Any work on your part is more likely to upset those specific and natural strains by introducing different and not natural strains.
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Finski
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« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2011, 01:57:06 AM »

.
Milk is not bees food. Scimmed milk has 50% lactose and bees cannot use that sugar.
Milk is medicine either.
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BeeCurious
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« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2011, 09:32:45 AM »

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Milk is not bees food. Scimmed milk has 50% lactose and bees cannot use that sugar.
Milk is medicine either.

And it seems that it's not a very good "people food" either...
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« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2011, 11:06:12 AM »

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And it seems that it's not a very good "people food" either...

Why stop there.  What food isn't bad for you after it has been modified or poisoned by big Ag?
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Countryboy
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« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2011, 10:25:14 PM »

I've mixed probiotic capsules into sugar syrup before.  (1 capsule per 5 gallons)  I don't know if it helped the bees or not, but I felt better doing it.  IIRC, Dennis Murrell found that his bees grew in strength faster if he sprayed some kombucha probiotic juice on the bees.

You could also identify a good strong hive, and remove a frame of pollen from it and give to a weaker hive.  The frame of pollen will have the good bacteria the healthy hive has if you want to give the bees natural strains of beneficial bacteria.
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« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2011, 12:01:15 AM »

>You could also identify a good strong hive, and remove a frame of pollen from it and give to a weaker hive.  The frame of pollen will have the good bacteria the healthy hive has if you want to give the bees natural strains of beneficial bacteria.

I often wonder how often "boosting" a colony with frames from a strong colony actually works because of the microbes rather than the bees or resources...
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« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2011, 12:31:40 AM »

You could also identify a good strong hive, and remove a frame of pollen from it and give to a weaker hive.  The frame of pollen will have the good bacteria the healthy hive has if you want to give the bees natural strains of beneficial bacteria.

That bacteria story goes over imagination. First time I ever hear.

But if you give a frame of emerging bees to the wearker colony, it surely boosts.
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Vetch
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« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2011, 08:27:20 AM »

.
Milk is not bees food. Scimmed milk has 50% lactose and bees cannot use that sugar.
Milk is medicine either.

And it seems that it's not a very good "people food" either...

Depends on the person. Some people handle milk very well, for others it is a curse. The same is true of wheat, peanuts, shrimp, cabbage,  etc.

I think that feeding bees corn syrup can have negative effects - it is inferior to the natural diet of bees, it is a processed food, it is calorie rich but poor in other nutrients (ie, a 'junk' food). In a pinch, it is better than starving, but is not generally good.
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« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2011, 09:12:57 AM »


, it is calorie rich but poor in other nutrients (ie, a 'junk' food).

The bee gets its calories from sugar or from honey and other nutrietients it gets from pollen. This is knowledge, not thinking.
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Trot
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« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2011, 09:55:40 AM »

I can remember how corn syrup was a NO, NO as bee food before 1980 or there abouts.  Bees, at that time, did not respond to it at all favorably.  Only slightly better than starvation itself.  Most often, favorable weather, winter, would save them - not syrup!  But, like everything else being forced on them, they had no choice but to adapt, to a certain degree, but  syrup is still giving them trouble and what not. 
(Although most will not agree with this.  They might even produce some paper to bolster their claim to the plus side?)
But, as anything else, the bad was fast pushed in the dark corner when beeks discovered that it was much cheaper getting syrup, especialy if bought in truck-loads and no mixing and all that stuff, which further reduced labour, therefor cost...  But, as of late the staff is simply found in honey jars all over the world and the issue has taken yet another turn...
As all else that pertains to bees, all is crafted to the mould that best fits beekeeper and not bees.  I suppose they have no choice but to consume it, even though it most often does them more harm than good?  Plain cane sugar is still the most suitable emergency feed... feed in a pinch as it were.

But, to feed them them milk?  Well, it is sure a strange world out there in God know what else we are encounter?  I for one get  info of all sorts of weird stuf and concoctions that are feed to the bee in Europe, out of all places.

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« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2011, 10:20:33 AM »

I've read of feeding them dry milk as a pollen substitute.

Feeding them a little bit of milk I'm sure probably wouldn't hurt, although how much it would help would be in question.  Keep in mind that chickens and bees are just different enough that any benefits would be in question.

As to the outrage of feeding the bees anything but pure flower nectar and pure flower pollen...well..the bees collect bird seed, wood shaving dust, corn dust, putrid water, maple sap, and a whole host of things that we probably wouldn't consider adding to the hives.  Milk is fairly benign compared to some of those.

There are lots of things people do or don't do and they all anecdotally work miracles.  So go ahead and give it a try...but if your bees don't have any issues, they may just stay healthy and not from the milk...
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« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2011, 10:39:46 AM »


, it is calorie rich but poor in other nutrients (ie, a 'junk' food).


The bee gets its calories from sugar or from honey and other nutrietients it gets from pollen. This is knowledge, not thinking.


No, that is not clear at all. Nectar and honey have nutrients that are not present in refined sugars and are not present in pollen.

For example, nectar is rich in certain flavonoids, and these have a wide variety of effects on animal metabolism. No one knows what effect they have on bees, but humans that eat a flavonoid poor diet are more prone to many diseases.  

Another example: nectar is rich in volatile organic compounds like geraniol, nerolic acid and citral. These compounds are used as various pheromones and semiotic chemicals produced by the bees. The article below shows that geraniol and nerolic acid confuse varroa mites and reduces their ability to seek out prey in a hive... part of the strategy of varroa mites is to go after newly hatched brood and nurse bees, and natural nectar works against that while sugar does not.

Quote
Through fractionation and isolation of active components of nurse bee-derived solvent washes, two honey bee Nasonov pheromone components, geraniol and nerolic acid, were shown to confuse mite orientation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16180069


Nutritionists once thought that they could easily synthesize an infant formula that is equal to a mother's milk. They pretended it was only about the amount of protein, carbohydrate, and fat. That is simply not true - early formulas were very detrimental to the development of infants. Todays infant formulas are more sophisticated and less damaging, but they do not contain the protective antibodies and other valuable things found in mothers milk. The more we look into nutrition, the more complex it becomes. Yes, calories and protein are important, but it is wrong to reduce everything to such simple terms.
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Finski
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« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2011, 11:31:26 AM »

No, that is not clear at all. Nectar and honey have nutrients that are not present in refined sugars and
For example, nectar is rich in certain flavonoids, and these have a wide variety of effects on animal metabolism. No one knows what effect they have on bees, but humans that eat a flavonoid poor diet are more prone to many diseases.  
.

I have read  researches in internet which seems to be practical. For instance it is said that vitamins are important but nowhere is said what vitamin and and how much.

 
Knowledge about bee nutrition is not at that level what you handle.

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Vetch
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« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2011, 12:16:21 PM »

Yes, I agree, knowledge about bee nutrition is rather limited. Which is why one should not think that pure sugar or HFCS can be substituted for nectar with no negative effects - there is no evidence, and it is illogical. Bees evolved over millions of years to consume a mix of different nectars. Switching them to a less complex, less natural diet cannot be assumed to be in the interest of bee health. Feeding sugar is better than letting the bees starve to death, but when it becomes a frequent practice, it is empty calories, or bee junk food.

The article I linked to shows that compounds in nectar interfere in some ways with varroa mites. We also see beeks using essential oils with these same compounds to 'doctor' a hive ... yet when bees rely on nectar instead of sugar, they are able to nurse themselves to a degree.
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« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2011, 12:57:23 PM »


. Which is why one should not think that pure sugar or HFCS can be substituted for nectar with no negative effects - there is no evidence, and it is illogical.

Bees evolved over millions of years to consume a mix of different nectars.

  Feeding sugar is better than letting the bees starve to death, but when it becomes a frequent practice, it is empty calories, or bee junk food.

.


YOu use too much feelings now. Sugar is not and alternative of death. It is altenative of honey.

A beekeeper change the bees food store to lower value food store. Before the new honey yield comes in. all wintered has been dead, did they use hoey or not.

So what went wrong after all?

What bees do not do, it to tickle cows tits and drink milk.

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« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2011, 03:16:56 PM »

 
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Yes, calories and protein are important, but it is wrong to reduce everything to such simple terms.


It is wrong for all livestock but I don't see big Ag changing their ways in the near future for those that are not willing to pay a premium price for livestock to be raised naturally.
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« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2011, 03:22:20 PM »

That 'feeling' informed by hundreds of other examples of where humans 'knew' they understood the situation and 'knew' they could do better. Not calling it death, rather, sub-prime health.

Kool-Aid vs Hibiscus tea.  Because red dye #2 is just as good for kids as the red anthocyanin pigments.

Candy instead of fruit.

Mother's milk versus synthetic formula.

Feeding cows grain instead of grass (cows evolved to eat grass, feeding grain requires far more antibiotics, then the meat is loaded with inflammatory oils and devoid of anti-inflammatory omega-3s).



Quote
What bees do not do, it to tickle cows tits and drink milk.

Except for ant-cows (aphids). And that isn't the aphid's tit that bees feed from, it is another anatomical feature.  Lips Sealed

Milk is no more artificial for a bee than feeding them soy protein or yeast cake -  like refined sugar, these are all things they don't normally find in nature, their metabolism was not optimized for that diet.  If they have no pollen stores, yes, this will keep them from dying off from protein deficiency ... but you are letting your feelings show by declaring milk to be un-natural while you also equate sugar with honey. Why bother to sell real honey to people? Just give them a sugar syrup with some yellow color and a bit of artificial flavor - isn't that the same?
___

Other 'feelings' ....

We move bees across the country and from continent to continent, and then are surprised that parasites and diseases spread so rapidly.

We force bees to form larger comb cells than they want to (on the theory that a bigger bee is a better bee) but have no evidence that this makes a bee healthier, we ignore the evidence that this makes it easier for mites to breed in the comb.

We often leave the bees with less food than they need, and then we declare that the substitutes that we provide are just as good (with no real evidence of that).


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Vetch
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« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2011, 03:24:48 PM »

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Yes, calories and protein are important, but it is wrong to reduce everything to such simple terms.


It is wrong for all livestock but I don't see big Ag changing their ways in the near future for those that are not willing to pay a premium price for livestock to be raised naturally.

So? You are confusing two distinct questions. Big ag wants to sell every pesticide they can dream up, and they don't care if it wipes out your bees or gives you cancer ten years down the road. As long as it cannot be traced to them, it sounds like a good plan. Their schemes are entirely separate from questions of health or what is right.
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« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2011, 03:40:51 PM »

I'm agreeing with you Vetch. Smiley
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« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2011, 03:47:22 PM »

We move bees across the country and from continent to continent, and then are surprised that parasites and diseases spread so rapidly.

We force bees to form larger comb cells than they want to (on the theory that a bigger bee is a better bee) but have no evidence that this makes a bee healthier, we ignore the evidence that this makes it easier for mites to breed in the comb.

We often leave the bees with less food than they need, and then we declare that the substitutes that we provide are just as good (with no real evidence of that).





May the Milk Force be with you.

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« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2011, 07:49:12 PM »

I have read  researches in internet which seems to be practical. For instance it is said that vitamins are important but nowhere is said what vitamin and and how much.

http://www.latshawapiaries.com/supplement.htm sells a vitamin and mineral supplement.  Latshaw says he believes this is the first product to address the vitamin and mineral needs of bees, but he does not say on his website the research analysis of the right amounts.

Latshaw supplies breeder queens to Miksa, Koehnen, I think Olivarez too.

Feeding cows grain instead of grass (cows evolved to eat grass, feeding grain requires far more antibiotics,

Corn is a grass.
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« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2011, 08:04:38 PM »

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Corn is a grass.

Nope.  Corn is a grain (seed) and the stalk is the grass.
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« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2011, 11:27:06 PM »

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Corn is a grass.

Nope.  Corn is a grain (seed) and the stalk is the grass.

Grain is nutritionally very different from the vegetative part of grasses. Cattle are adapted to eat a bit of grain in the fall, that can help them fatten up for winter. Fattening them up for their entire life is rather unhealthy, just as it is for people.   A high grain diet makes cows very susceptible to E. coli (of interest to people that eat beef, which easily gets contaminated in the slaughter house). It also makes cattle susceptible to other diseases (such as bloat, acidosis, gut lesions, liver abscesses, etc.)... which requires more antibiotics and generates more bacteria that are resistant to antibiotics (not good when those spread to people). And the grain is rich in omega-6 type fats, which are pro-inflammatory. These feed into many chronic diseases including heart disease (the leading killer), diabetes (an emerging epidemic), etc.  Pastured beef is high in omega-3 fats, which are anti-inflammatory and useful in preventing/treating a large number of diseases.
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« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2011, 03:35:28 PM »

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Cattle are adapted to eat a bit of grain in the fall

Yeah, the keyword is "adapted".  Make them eat something they were not meant to eat and then shove them full of antibiotics because of the bad side effects.  Makes perfect sense. rolleyes
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« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2011, 04:42:03 PM »

<Sigh>
This is why every day after work I pull on my deerhide breechcloth and head off into the woods to kill some supper with my bare hands and teeth.

I'd hunt with flints and cook my meat, but that isn't natural.  Those big flint maker guilds and the fire starter guilds have really been pushing so hard for it, but it obviously isn't natural.

Nothing is more natural than a bloody deer steak and some frozen wrinkly elderberries!!
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« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2011, 05:21:06 PM »

This was a question about feeding milk to bees.  I'd never heard of it and was enjoying the discussion. 

I'm not sure how "Big Ag" haters (yawn) started grinding their axes.  I'd love the "Big Ag" haters to actually try to live a few years (financially and physically) without anything produced by any "Big *" (*oil, pharmaceuticals, mining, lumber, etc).  Nothing but leather and pelts, no internal combustion engines, no running water, spears or bows and arrows, nothing made of plastic or iron, and definately no medicines.
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« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2011, 06:24:20 PM »

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I'd love the "Big Ag" haters to actually try to live a few years (financially and physically) without anything produced by any "Big *"


Do you honestly believe we need them?  BTW none of the things you listed are food items.
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« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2011, 09:31:31 AM »

I listed no food as you're in charge of getting (picking, digging, fishing, hunting) all that, of course there can be nothing from "Big Ag".  If you're going to pay for your food or anything else, you better not be earning money related to anything that is "Big *" (*oil, pharmaceuticals, mining, lumber, etc) related.  That includes businesses the depend on any products or customers who use any products from any of those "Big *" companies  too.  "Big oil" includes electricity so unless you've got a wind farm you're going to have to get off the grid as well.  If one actually followed the anti-Big * lifestyle they'd quickly realize it's not quite the panacea they thought it was, to put it mildly.
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« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2011, 09:39:17 AM »


Yeah, the keyword is "adapted".  Make them eat something they were not meant to eat and then shove ...  Makes perfect sense. rolleyes

May I adapt to eate Nepal food in Finland?  I started it today. It was spicy hot, and not mentioned at least to children mouth.
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« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2011, 11:19:03 AM »

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If you're going to pay for your food or anything else, you better not be earning money related to anything that is "Big *"


Why?  You want to lump them all together.  I don't.  I want to take each individual abuser and trim their tail feathers based on what they do wrong.  Poisoning our food is wrong and it has been proved wrong.
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« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2011, 11:42:43 AM »

This was a question about feeding milk to bees.  I'd never heard of it and was enjoying the discussion.  

I'm not sure how "Big Ag" haters (yawn) started grinding their axes.  I'd love the "Big Ag" haters to actually try to live a few years (financially and physically) without anything produced by any "Big *" (*oil, pharmaceuticals, mining, lumber, etc).  Nothing but leather and pelts, no internal combustion engines, no running water, spears or bows and arrows, nothing made of plastic or iron, and definately no medicines.

That isn't the point at all - I am not arguing against big, I am arguing against bad. One can produce huge amounts of beef on pasture, the cattle will be healthier, the people that eat them will be healthier, the soil and water will be healthier (fertilizer for fields versus feedlot sewage pollution).  The word 'modern' means nothing more that 'the way we do things now' ... sometimes modern is better, sometimes it is worse.

Economic and social forces are real, but they can be at odds with biological reality -- when this happens in beekeeping, bee health and beekeeper economic health will ultimately suffer.
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« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2011, 03:29:25 PM »

Why?  You want to lump them all together.  I don't.  I want to take each individual abuser and trim their tail feathers based on what they do wrong.  Poisoning our food is wrong and it has been proved wrong.

Be careful how high you crawl on your soapbox, it appears you're already crawling down.  You say you merely want to "trim tailfeathers" then claim they are poisoners and we don't need them.  It is that inflammatory language that has burned more than one bridge here for you.  When I hear someone using the term "Big *" I hear someone that is convinced there's a conpiracy afoot.  I've found that those who believe this of one "Big *" will lump any other large multinational corporations in the same boat no mater what industry they are in.  Are you saying you only have trouble with "Big Ag" and have no trouble with any of the other "bigs?"  Make sure to answer this one if you respond.

Either way, if you are so convinced your food is being poisoned by "Big Ag" do you do any business with them or anyone else who does?  It sounds like you do.  To me its not logical to do business with someone who you think actually poisoning your food.  To me it's not logical to do business with anyone who deals with someone who's actually poisoning my food.  One can't be half pregnant.

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« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2011, 04:07:42 PM »

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Are you saying you only have trouble with "Big Ag" and have no trouble with any of the other "bigs?"  Make sure to answer this one if you respond.

Absolutely not.  It is inherent with becoming big that you no longer care for what happens to your consumer as long as it doesn’t paint a bad name for your empire and you loose it all.  What I am saying is that each Big * has to be watched like a hawk and the ones you catch doing something wrong should be burned.

Quote
do you do any business with them or anyone else who does?

I avoid it at all cost but there are some times when you have no choice.  They are poisoning our food supply and if it bothers you that I say it then you must be one of them.
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« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2011, 06:18:20 PM »

Absolutely not.  It is inherent with becoming big that you no longer care for what happens to your consumer as long as it doesn’t paint a bad name for your empire and you loose it all.  What I am saying is that each Big * has to be watched like a hawk and the ones you catch doing something wrong should be burned.

Who's to be the hawk?  Who's definition of wrong?  What is burned?  It's easy to pass judgement without a defense and internet innuendos.

I avoid it at all cost but there are some times when you have no choice.  They are poisoning our food supply and if it bothers you that I say it then you must be one of them.

Oh, we always have a choice.  The only two things we all have to do is die and pay taxes.  Yep, I'm one of them, you got me.  I'm trying to poison my wonderful wife, and 6 and 11 year old children...  There's that inflammatory garbage again.  Crawl as high on your soapbox as you wish, it only makes it easier for the world to knock you off.  Negative is everywhere in life and some people thrive on it thinking it gives them a purpose when it only drags them and those who let it down.  It is when you can find the less obvious but more numerous positives in life that you'll learn to enjoy life.

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« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2011, 08:57:02 PM »

What bees do not do, it to tickle cows tits and drink milk.
Spew alert! Ahhhh, there's a line for the history books. And probably something we can ALL agree on!  grin
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The pedigree of honey
Does not concern the bee;
A clover, any time, to him
Is aristocracy.
---Emily Dickinson
luvin honey
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« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2011, 09:01:05 PM »

Quote
Are you saying you only have trouble with "Big Ag" and have no trouble with any of the other "bigs?"  Make sure to answer this one if you respond.

Absolutely not.  It is inherent with becoming big that you no longer care for what happens to your consumer as long as it doesn’t paint a bad name for your empire and you loose it all.  What I am saying is that each Big * has to be watched like a hawk and the ones you catch doing something wrong should be burned.

Quote
do you do any business with them or anyone else who does?

I avoid it at all cost but there are some times when you have no choice.  They are poisoning our food supply and if it bothers you that I say it then you must be one of them.
Puh-lease. Not again. While "big" may often lead to problems, it is not "inherent." And to say that anyone who questions your opinions must be "one of them" is ridiculous logic. It could be that someone who questions you thinks you are a conspiracy theorist, is bored, couldn't care less or any of another 100 options...


I would probably agree with a lot of what you say about big ag, but what does that have to do with this particular conversation?
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The pedigree of honey
Does not concern the bee;
A clover, any time, to him
Is aristocracy.
---Emily Dickinson
Finski
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« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2011, 10:59:31 PM »

.
Are you afraid of looking facts.

First is that 50% of it's weight is lactose.  

The rest is good protein, very near of bees' needs, but there is a lack of one amino acid .

Optimum need of aminoacids of bees
and amount in scimmed milk and percentage of needed


5,3..... 3,3 Arginine 62 %
2,5.....  2,6 Histidine 104 %
5,1 ..... 4,3 Isoleucine 84 %
7,1.....  9,2 Leucine 130 %
6,4.....  7,8 Lysine 122 %
1,9.....  2,5 Methionine 132 %
4,1.....  5,6 Phenyalalamine 137 %
4,1.....  4,5 Threomine 110 %
1,4 ..... it is, but not seen Trypotophane
5,8 ..... 5,7 Valine 98 %

Scimmed milk is very expencive compared to GM soya and dried yeast.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 11:13:06 PM by Finski » Logged

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Finski
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« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2011, 11:09:47 PM »

.
Have some one feeded to bees slices of cheese as pollen substitutue? Probably yes.
Beeks try everything. Yoghurt is surely tastier because it has 15% cane sugar and
allowed fruit like aromas.

Have you tried Coca Cola to bees? As fas as I know, Africanized bee likes it.

Some here want to make heroin honey and then we wonder, where have bees disapeared?
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hardwood
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Alysian Apiaries youtube.com/MrBeedude


« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2011, 11:10:42 PM »

That's interesting Finski! And thanks for bringing this thread back on topic!

Scott
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"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1907
Finski
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« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2011, 11:18:15 PM »

.
Lets look what is constitution of 3,5% fat full milk

http://www.fineli.fi/food.php?foodid=689&lang=en


But what is the water content of milk?
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bullship
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« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2011, 11:52:41 PM »

Sure GLAD I brought this subject up! Finsky  is the only one to stay somewhere near the subject. I was thinking about the vitamins, minerals and enzimes to possibly help with cerrana. Forgot about the lactose. The single answer to the rest of you is very simple GREED!!
Bullship:
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Bullship
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