Fighting Queens

[ArmucheeBee]

If I had a two Q hive and seperated two boxes with an excluder (Q in bottom, Q in top), would they attempt to fight/sting each other through the excluder?  Would they spend time doing this instead of laying?  Just wondering.

[Robo]

Perhaps if the met up.   I've had hives raise a queen above the excluder and not had them interact.

[AllenF]

When people run a 2 queen hive, they want 2 queens for more worker, more eggs, more honey in the long run.  I don't think they fight at all since they can not get through the excluder.

[AllenF]

Always look to the master.  I looked it up. http://www.bushfarms.com/beestwoqueenhive.htm

[deknow]

I don't think they fight at all since they can not get through the excluder.

Most 2 queen setups that I'm aware of don't allow for queens to touch through an excluder.  As Robo says, they might fight if they meet through the excluder.

deknow

[JP]

I would be more worried about what the bees might do to one of the queens rather than what they would do to each other. As long as each hive was independent of each other, the bees and queens should cope just fine.

But man! Who wants to work a super two queened double stacked set up with possibly upwards of 120,000 bees?


...JP

[hardwood]

I've been thinking of setting up just one hive as a two queen colony as an experiment during our citrus flow and to compare it with the one queeners in the same yard. I also want to see what happens with the harvest by making a strong colony queenless 3 weeks before the flow. Just experimenting

Scott

[AllenF]

Make sure you record these scientific events for all to see. 

[ArmucheeBee]

AllenF

I know they can not get through the excluder, thus the name! LOL.  But their Butts can get through the excluder and so I am wondering if one might could sting the other--obviously I was not specific enough.  LOL.  I was interested due to the fact I have another 2-Q hive this year.  Just wondering about the ferocity of queens in close proximity.  Heck they aren't fighting in the same box or on the same frame, but if both were laying..... I'll run a double excluder with a spacer if needed.  I wonder if the bees in the bottom would store honey in the top or would they fill the bottom and lead to swarming in that hive?  I also would use the double Q hive to help a weak colony if I needed to keep a queen alive.

[Michael Bush]

In my experience laying queens aren't looking to fight.  One of the easiest ways to set up a two queen hive is simply split the brood chamber with a queen excluder.  More than 3/4s of the time they will rear a queen in the half that doesn't have one and you'll have two queens with only an excluder between them.  I do this unintentionally almost every year when I set up some breeder hives.   I put the queen in the top box with one box of brood and an excluder under it so I can easily find her to confine her (for Jenter) or to find larvae the right age (for grafting) and they almost always rear a queen below.

[rtztgue]

This is great.  I was playing with the idea of doing something like this.  My idea was to run a second set of supers next to the main hive with plexiglass tubing between them, then exlude both ends.   or possibly use two excluders with super in the middle... then the queens could never meet.

But my idea was more of a genetic experiment.   If i were to get two queens, one italian and one Carniolan or something...would the workers intermingle and spread their genetic info between the hives so eventually there would be a hybrid. 

I suppose this has been done to death already at the big apiaries... but I cannot find much info on cross breeding bees.. 

[VolunteerK9]

IF I can ever figger out one queen hives then maybe. Ive researched it somewhat but right now I think its more than a 1 year beehaver like myself could successfully do. I think either Bjorn or Robo had some pics on their website of a two queen system.

[Acebird]

I still can't get my head wrapped around how this system produces more honey than two separate hives.

If you use the tower method how much room do you need for each queen?  Two deeps or three mediums??

[Jim 134]

I have use a Snellgrove Board for run a 2-Queen hive.

   BEE HAPPY Jim 134  

[ArmucheeBee]

Acebird

I was thinking 4 medium nucs high for each queen, sitting side by side then a queen excluder.  Then you would have to build your supers to fit the new dimensions of those medium nucs which are placed side by side.  That is the drawback for me right now.  I have enough to do without needing to build 2-3 supers.  You could do the same thing with normal boxes by inserting a board down the middle of each.  If that has a name I forgot it.

[Jim 134]

Acebird

I was thinking 4 medium nucs high for each queen, sitting side by side then a queen excluder.  Then you would have to build your supers to fit the new dimensions of those medium nucs which are placed side by side.  That is the drawback for me right now.  I have enough to do without needing to build 2-3 supers.  You could do the same thing with normal boxes by inserting a board down the middle of each.  If that has a name I forgot it.

  Look at the Kirkhoff Hive or H3


   BEE HAPPY Jim 134

[Acebird]

I have enough to do without needing to build 2-3 supers.

What I saw was more like this:

http://www.beesource.com/resources/elements-of-beekeeping/alternative-hive-designs/urban-bee-condo-long-hive/

You use all regular equipment.  Two deeps side by side then you put a queen excluder underneath the supers.  Workers can go to either queen but the queens can't commingle.

[Bee Happy]

I'm probably re-asking a question, but does it measurably increase production over 2 separate hives. (I can imagine how it would create full supers faster, but I'm talking overall net increase)

[Jim 134]

I have enough to do without needing to build 2-3 supers.

What I saw was more like this:

http://www.beesource.com/resources/elements-of-beekeeping/alternative-hive-designs/urban-bee-condo-long-hive/

You use all regular equipment.  Two deeps side by side then you put a queen excluder underneath the supers.  Workers can go to either queen but the queens can't commingle.

  The pic as a 1 queen hive not a 2 queen hive


May bee the one you looking for  






  BEE HAPPY Jim 134

[Acebird]

Yeah, there you go Jim that's it.

BeeHappy I already questioned that and waiting for some responses.

[Bee Happy]

we may have to wait and see what hardwood posts as results - it would be hard to find out without a side by side comparison in the same season.

[ArmucheeBee]

Jim

Two questions:   

1st:  That is 2-Q right?
2nd:  Do you have a problem with rain going down beside the supers?

BeeHappy
You may not need a side by side to compare, if this was your only.  With experience you know how much the avg hive at your home brings in.  If this set up does not produce more than twice the amount of two seperate hives then it's not worth the trouble.  But that said, you really need more than just this setup in your apiary, for emergencies.

[Jim 134]

<1st:  That is 2-Q right?>

Yes on 2 Queens
<2nd:  Do you have a problem with rain going down beside the supers?>

I do not know
  The only 2 Queen hives I have use is the one using the Snellgrove Board.


  http://www.50000bees.com/?p=10

  BEE HAPPY Jim 134

[ArmucheeBee]

Jim

So if you use the Snellgroove broad do you have it so the bees bringing in honey can not go down to the queen areas or do you keep both the top and bottom entrances on the Snell open at the same time?

[Bee Happy]

Jim

BeeHappy
You may not need a side by side to compare, if this was your only.  With experience you know how much the avg hive at your home brings in.  If this set up does not produce more than twice the amount of two seperate hives then it's not worth the trouble.  But that said, you really need more than just this setup in your apiary, for emergencies.

That's fair, I'm just figuring that if the final count is within a few pounds that it could easily be attributed to a slight variation within the season.

[Jim 134]

Jim

So if you use the Snellgroove broad do you have it so the bees bringing in honey can not go down to the queen areas or do you keep both the top and bottom entrances on the Snell open at the same time?

1 hive  is on top and 1 hive as on the bottom
The reason I use a 2 Queen hive is for (Comb Honey section boxes)to get more bees in to the Supers it work well for me.

   

[Acebird]

If this set up does not produce more than twice the amount of two seperate hives then it's not worth the trouble.

I would think that if the numbers were that good the commercial beeks would use nothing but this system.

[WPG]

I would think that if the numbers were that good the commercial beeks would use nothing but this system.

How do you come up with that conclusion from the quote you gave?

Why do you infer 'if the commercial guys don't do it it's not worth doing'?

[Acebird]

How do you come up with that conclusion from the quote you gave?

Did I misread the quoted phrase?  If you can get twice as much honey using one method vs. another wouldn't you go that way as a commercial beek that sells honey?

Why do you infer 'if the commercial guys don't do it it's not worth doing'?

I didn't infer that at all.  If I inferred anything it is the disbelief that the yields would be so favorable for a tower set up.

[WPG]

Did I misread the quoted phrase?

Yep. You sure did

  If you can get twice as much honey using one method vs. another....?

That's not what was said.
Noone has said you could get twice as much.

Go back and read it slowly one word at a time.

You'll get it eventually.

[hardwood]

 

[Acebird]

If this set up does not produce more than twice the amount of two seperate hives then it's not worth the trouble.

This is a quote is it not?  Maybe you should read a little slower.

[WPG]

Ok, you win.

I'm probably re-asking a question, but does it measurably increase production over 2 separate hives. (I can imagine how it would create full supers faster, but I'm talking overall net increase)

Armucheebee was responding to 2 different posts by Bee Happy, but twisted his words up a little and didn't proof his rough draft.
I knew what he meant, I think everyone else (but you) did too.

Do you really think Armucheebee meant:


If 1-hive .........................................produces 150lbs
2-separate hives ..............................produce   300lbs total

then a 2-queen tower hive needs to ....produce   600+lbs

or it isn't worth it?

If it produced just 50lbs more it would be worth it for me.
I like the idea of packing in the comb honey supers quickly.

It might actually be less work than Killion's way of comb honey  production.

[Bee Happy]

I'm gonna take back what I said about having side by side comparisons too - last year was my second beekeeping year and the first time I had any significant amount of honey; I had 2 hives  "the same" (they started out the same and as far as I could tell had similar strength in numbers) One hive filled and capped a super a week for four weeks - the other hive filled and capped 2.  Without a bee counter at the doorstep and who knows how many other factors. Outside of the little experience I had, I had no way of knowing a difference between them.

[Acebird]

Do you really think Armucheebee meant:


If 1-hive .........................................produces 150lbs
2-separate hives ..............................produce   300lbs total

then a 2-queen tower hive needs to ....produce   600+lbs

or it isn't worth it?

Yes I did.  I am on a learning curve so if something is misspoken and it doesn't make sense to me I am going to question it.  And even if it isn't misspoken I am bound to question.

So would you expect a greater yield from a tower set up?  Is there other documented advantages to a tower set up other than removing drone brood?

[Jim 134]

I would think that if the numbers were that good the commercial beeks would use nothing but this system.

  I see you have not keep bees commercial 


   BEE HAPPY Jim 134

[ArmucheeBee]

I'm so mixed up after reading all this I'm not sure what I said....but what I meant is:

 if two single queen hives; hive A makes 50 lbs, hive B makes 50 lbs, and then hive C is a two-queen setup it should make more than 100 lbs for it to be equal and above the yield of two single queen hives. 

they take a little more care and time so "worth" means time and work load for me.  a two Q hive would need to make more than what two single Q hives would produce for me to feel like it was worth MY time.

I would bet the commercial keepers would not want to fool with the maintainence and transport of a two-queen hives--is that right?

I hope this doesn't cause more angst!

[Jim 134]

I would bet the commercial keepers would not want to fool with the maintainence and transport of a two-queen hives--is that right?

   Commercial Beekeepers  do not have the TIME fool with or maintainence  two-queen hives.


          BEE HAPPY Jim 134

[Acebird]

Commercial Beekeepers  do not have the TIME fool with or maintainence  two-queen hives.

Can you elaborate on that please.  What I am seeing of a two queen hive (tower) is it is actually two separate hives with one common section that are all supers.  If something is common than that should mean there is less equipment involved.  I am obviously missing something here.

[ArmucheeBee]

but many comm. keepers move their hives during the year.  so having that setup would be difficult to move and if you unsupered them you would have queenless bees in those supers as they were moved.  i have not kept bees comm. but I can see lots of issues arising from the 2-Q setup that I can only imagine.  single stacked hives can be put on a pallet neatly and hauled off in a few minutes--time is money.

[KD4MOJ]

WOW! My head is spinin'.

...DOUG
KD4MOJ

[Jim 134]

Commercial Beekeepers  do not have the TIME fool with or maintainence  two-queen hives.

Can you elaborate on that please.  What I am seeing of a two queen hive (tower) is it is actually two separate hives with one common section that are all supers.  If something is common than that should mean there is less equipment involved.  I am obviously missing something here.

  You need to go to work for a Commercial Beekeeper some one like Merrimack Vallry Apiaries who has about 12,000 hives then you can tell me about  time.


                                
   http://mvabeepunchers.com/

   BEE HAPPY Jim 134