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Author Topic: Drift?  (Read 3295 times)
FRAMEshift
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« on: January 30, 2011, 07:07:51 PM »

I'm designing a new expanded bee yard.  It will eventually have  24 long hives in 4 rows.  That would be 6 hive boxes per row and the long hives can be split to hold two smaller colonies each.  So I could have as many as 12 colonies per row.  If I put these in a straight line, will I have a problem with drift?

 I'm not so much concerned with population imbalances.  If the hives are out of balance I can move frames from one hive to another to even it up.   But I don't want to lose lots of bees as a result of fighting.   I have read that 3 is the maximum number in a row without having a problem.  What is your experience with drift?  I guess I'm asking how much effort I should put in re-design of the yard to avoid drift.
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iddee
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« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2011, 07:44:51 PM »

Paint different designs on the front of the boxes or use different color boxes to reduce or eliminate drift.
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« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2011, 08:02:59 PM »

Some bees, like Italians, are worse about drifting than other strains of bees.

Fighting will not be an issue.  Guard bees only fight worker bees who show up with an empty belly.  If a bee comes to the entrance of a hive, and it is full of nectar, that bee has no problem entering and joining that hive.

For whatever reason, (queen with weak pheromones?) some hives in a beeyard lose bees.  Other hives in that yard will consistently have more bees coming in than flying away. (queen with stronger pheromones?)

And if the bees do drift a little, so what?  It's unlikely to be an issue unless the drifting is like this.
Bees Drifting Onto A Pallet Of Hives
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AllenF
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« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2011, 09:53:30 PM »

I just took 4 or 5 spray paint cans with me and painted up the bottom boards and the front of the bottom box different colors in my rows.   Do it on a cold day and everything will be fine come spring.
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BjornBee
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« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2011, 07:56:53 AM »

Anything to set one hive apart from the next is good. Different colored paint on the front. A brick on one and a cinder block on the next, etc. A bucket always here, or a small tree there. It all helps.
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« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2011, 10:11:42 AM »

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It's unlikely to be an issue unless the drifting is like this.

How does one differentiate between drift and a hive that is overheated?  I thought that when the bees cling to the outside of the hive it lacked ventilation.
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2011, 11:53:24 AM »

How does one differentiate between drift and a hive that is overheated?  I thought that when the bees cling to the outside of the hive it lacked ventilation.
It's a joke.  The video is not drift.
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Finski
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« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2011, 12:48:41 PM »

.
This Hungarian guy is not afraid of drifting

http://farkasmez.hu/gallery.html

I scatter my hives to avoid drifting
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Countryboy
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« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2011, 08:23:28 PM »

How does one differentiate between drift and a hive that is overheated?  I thought that when the bees cling to the outside of the hive it lacked ventilation.

An overheated hive is a dead or dying hive.  An overheated hive is not the same thing as a hive with poor ventilation.

You have to look at the whole picture to know if you are looking at drift or if it is a case of poor ventilation or extremely hot weather.  With hot weather or poor ventilation, your hives will beard some.  Most of your hives will look similar.  With drift, you will have a stronger hive surrounded by weaker hives.

It's a joke.  The video is not drift.

The video is a case of extreme drifting.  It is not a joke. (I have no idea why you would even think it is a joke.)  A few hundred hives were being moved through a holding yard, and bees got disoriented.  For whatever reason, many of the disoriented bees decided to adopt this pallet of hives as their home.
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iddee
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« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2011, 08:37:28 PM »

>>>The video is a case of extreme drifting.<<<

No, that is not drifting. Drifting is when foragers return from the field and go into the wrong box. Then continue returning to that box.

What you have is lost bees taking up with the nearest hive. That is entirely different.
Anytime many hives are moved from one area, a hive or two should be left to catch the stragglers. That is not drifting.
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« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2011, 08:42:33 PM »

Mine are all touching.  Do they drift?  Probably. Do I care?  No.

http://bushfarms.com/beesmisc.htm#hivestand

"The percentage of foragers originating from different colonies within the apiary ranged from 32 to 63 percent"--from a paper, published in 1991 by Walter Boylan-Pett and Roger Hoopingarner in Acta Horticulturae 288, 6th Pollination Symposium (see Jan 2010 edition of Bee Culture, 36)
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rdy-b
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« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2011, 08:56:49 PM »

Its your vid--but to me it looks like you where pulling honey and the bees got disorientate -by use of fume board -or perhaps a bee-blower-those bees whernt free flying drift--any way if you have drift in your yard -mostly at the ends of the rows-use it to your advantage and set your comb honey suppers on those hives.
countryboy has a lot of cool vids hope he shares them all- needs to fix his location on the avatar so we know hes
from ohio-- cheesy RDY-B
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AllenF
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« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2011, 11:08:28 PM »

Countryboy has a lot of good videos there.   Just watched maybe half and ran out of time before bed.   I really like the queen hive tool test.   
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« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2011, 11:23:51 PM »

I just checked out some too...nice!

Countryboy, I see that you're into heirloom tomatoes too...we might need to start a seed swap!

Scott
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« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2011, 08:37:30 AM »

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Mine are all touching.  Do they drift?  Probably. Do I care?  No.

And I was told you couldn't learn beekeeping on the internet and viewing videos.  Videos and discussion afterwards blows away any form of publication when it comes to learning.  Academia would be lost today without graphic representation.
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« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2011, 09:14:59 AM »

I haven't ever witnessed it, but that video looks like what I've heard a AHB raid can look like.

Scott
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"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

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« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2011, 09:49:37 AM »

Or when you are refilling your bottle of bee quick and spill it into the top of a hive.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2011, 12:17:18 PM »

Quote
Mine are all touching.  Do they drift?  Probably. Do I care?  No.

And I was told you couldn't learn beekeeping on the internet and viewing videos.  Videos and discussion afterwards blows away any form of publication when it comes to learning.  Academia would be lost today without graphic representation.
yea that makes me chuckel because i have heard that the driving force behind the internets rapid sucess is porn-RDY-B
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« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2011, 01:02:06 PM »

Seven of my hives are lined up in a row, but each on is a different color.  It helps with the drifting, but, more importantly, it breaks up the monotony of a single color.  It adds more color to my garden!  The rest of my hives are scattered on others' properties for pollenation, so color delineation for drifting isn't really a factor.
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« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2011, 03:03:53 PM »

Countryboy has a lot of good videos there.   Just watched maybe half and ran out of time before bed.   I really like the queen hive tool test.   

I agree. Some pretty darned big 4 deep hives too.

Countryboy, just curious but why on the video of you checking on your 18 day packages, you filled up a frame feeder with syrup and then put on an excluder and 2 supers?
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rdy-b
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« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2011, 06:28:04 PM »

He is doing a variation of the HOUSEHOLDER method - cheesy he can fill in the blanks-RDY-B
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Countryboy
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« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2011, 07:13:00 PM »

but to me it looks like you where pulling honey and the bees got disorientate -by use of fume board -or perhaps a bee-blower-those bees whernt free flying drift

We brought hives to the holding yard on a rainy day, and then the next day we shook the bees into a buyer's boxes.  When you shake bees out of your box, and then take your box away, any bee that didn't stay with the new hive just turned into a free flying bee.

Countryboy, I see that you're into heirloom tomatoes too...we might need to start a seed swap!

I have well over 100 different varieties.  I like to swap seeds for money.   Smiley
They say a picture is worth a thousand words, and a video is worth a thousand pics.  I made a few vids of different heirloom tomatoes to embed on my eBay listings...to give folks an even better idea of what the tomatoes really turn out like. 

yea that makes me chuckel because i have heard that the driving force behind the internets rapid sucess is porn-RDY-B

In the early years, porn was the only way to earn money on the internet.  Pornsites were the first to find a way to provide what people want, and to get paid for it.  Without people finding a way to use the internet to make money, the internet would not have built up as fast.

Countryboy, just curious but why on the video of you checking on your 18 day packages, you filled up a frame feeder with syrup and then put on an excluder and 2 supers?

If you will notice, I was running a single deep.  Managing bees in a single deep is much trickier than in doubles.  They will go from a small cluster one day, have a big hatch, and 2 days later ready to swarm.  Giving them supers gives them clustering space.  I know the bees will not store any syrup in the supers, because they don't have enough feed in the broodnest yet, and feed will just be used for rearing brood.  It takes a frame of water, a frame of pollen, and a frame of feed to make a frame of bees.  A gallon of syrup is about two frames worth of feed, so it gets burned through pretty quick.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2011, 07:59:49 PM »

how did your bees winter-compared to the alternative method ron uses-and whats your count- any plans to expand to the
 production of the HOUSEHOLDER tecnique-RDY-B
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AllenF
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« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2011, 08:07:23 PM »

I would like to see more videos.   They were very good.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2011, 08:42:05 PM »

HERE Allen-these are good- Smiley
Stahlman Apiaries- unloading bees

MVI_3222.AVI

extracting honey

California Pollination- A Day with A Beekeeper

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« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2011, 08:43:47 PM »

CountryBoy, I found your videos on YouTube as well.  Nicely done. 

I look forward to hearing a lot more from you.
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« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2011, 12:00:06 PM »

I would like to know the zip code for Hopelessly Lost. grin
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« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2011, 12:04:16 PM »

It is   ICU-812
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« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2011, 01:29:07 PM »

The government knows where he is.
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Countryboy
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« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2011, 10:10:53 PM »

how did your bees winter-compared to the alternative method ron uses-and whats your count-

42 hives going into winter.

The bees haven't had good weather for cleansing flights since New Year's Weekend.  In the next couple weeks there are supposed to be a couple days that get from 40-50 degrees, and I intend to check the bees then.

As of New Year's Weekend, 7 of 15 hives with Wilbanks queens were dead.  The clusters dwindled from being nice hives in late October when I finished feeding.  The clusters died in contact with capped honey.

I had 18 nucleus hives I was overwintering.  I had raised these queens this summer from the hives that overwintered the best last winter.  I had a few nucs that were weak going into winter.  (I should have combined them, but I cross my fingers and give weak hives a chance.)  3 nucs had died, but the other 15 nucs were still alive.

All other hives were still alive and doing fine at New Year's.  These hives are from swarms, cutouts, queens I've raised, and overwintered stock from last year.

any plans to expand to the production of the HOUSEHOLDER tecnique

Nope.  I don't have any intentions of going beyond 100-200 hives.  While I plan on doing some honey production, eventually I'd like to focus on selling nucs or hives.

I would like to know the zip code for Hopelessly Lost.

I finally found a spot on the profile for my location.  I think it should say that I am in Central Ohio now.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2011, 10:43:37 PM »

some more qustions Smiley-i know location is key -keeping this in mind would you say your wintering location
is harder or easyer than rons locations-and wonder how those  bees that now he shakes-winter
or is it a lost cause -like he says-of course theres good years and bad -so with the hard winter i supose this
is a good time to calculate an average winter lose-LA NINA is showing her self in cali will be a record 70 this week- cool
RDY-B
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Countryboy
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« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2011, 11:12:08 PM »

NW Ohio is flat from the glaciers, with small patches of trees here and there.  They get some pretty nasty winds.  I live where the glaciers stopped.  I have hills, and in a much more forested area.  Winter comes a week earlier, and spring a week later up in MW Ohio compared to here.  I would say that my area is a little milder.

I think much of Ron's problems with overwintering are due to the bees he runs.  They are a good honey producing bee, but they aren't adapted to Ohio winters.  I recently read a really interesting study that looked at bees ability to digest non-native pollens.  Bees really do acclimate, and bees from a local area digest local pollens better, and have a more difficult time digesting pollens if they are moved to a new region.  The study also found that bees from warm regions can't make body heat as well as bees from colder areas.
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« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2011, 12:00:37 AM »

well his bees sure stand the test of spring and sumer-only time i consider pollen quality
to be a factor is if the enviorment in which it comes from is compermised-such as three years of drought that we
experienced in cali two years ago-realy put the hurt to the bees and that was the big spot light for CCD-our state bee
guy DR ERIC MUSSIN said that the bees nutrition was compermised-every one said o no we got a realy big problem going -the thing ran its course and came back around full circle back to nutrion as the building blocks to fit pathogen and viruse-are you still with ron or are you one of the ones that moved on as he puts it- Smiley RDY-B
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« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2011, 12:43:09 AM »

CountryBoy,

Based on your video, I assume you’re wintering your nucs in regular 5 frame boxes with a super on top?  Great to hear they’re doing so well.  Do you add a candy board or other feed, or is the super enough?  And how about warmth?  I was under the impression that M Palmer in Vt was putting his nucs over full hives for warmth.  It sounds like your nucs are doing fine without extra bee heat?  

I’ve got relatives in Zanesville, nice rolling hills down your way as opposed to the flatland up here.
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« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2011, 02:43:21 AM »

NW Ohio is flat from the glaciers, with small patches of trees here and there.  They get some pretty nasty winds.  I live where the glaciers stopped.  I have hills, and in a much more forested area.  Winter comes a week earlier, and spring a week later up in MW Ohio compared to here.  I would say that my area is a little milder.

I think much of Ron's problems with overwintering are due to the bees he runs.  They are a good honey producing bee, but they aren't adapted to Ohio winters.  I recently read a really interesting study that looked at bees ability to digest non-native pollens.  Bees really do acclimate, and bees from a local area digest local pollens better, and have a more difficult time digesting pollens if they are moved to a new region.  The study also found that bees from warm regions can't make body heat as well as bees from colder areas.

Fascinating, what publication or online was that mentioned on Countryboy? Did it mention any studies on the average generations it took to acclimatize? Any mention of effects on interstate bee's trucked round for pollination? Thanks for video's as well, illuminating.
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« Reply #35 on: February 03, 2011, 11:04:10 AM »

> would like to know the zip code for Hopelessly Lost.

>I finally found a spot on the profile for my location.  I think it should say that I am in Central Ohio now.

Thanks, I was not trying to be a smart---, I feel like I can learn more about beekeeping if I know the location of the teachers.
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« Reply #36 on: February 03, 2011, 10:37:35 PM »

are you still with ron or are you one of the ones that moved on as he puts it

I'm over 100 miles one way.  I had no intentions of helping more than one summer.  I have too many irons in the fire as it is, and was spending more time away than I planned on to begin with.

Based on your video, I assume you’re wintering your nucs in regular 5 frame boxes with a super on top?

Actually, those are the only two that I have with a nuc super of honey above them.  My other nucs are in 10 frame boxes.  Some were turned into a single deep - I just added a feeder and a couple frames of honey to fill out the box.  I also have some in a 10 frame box with a divider, with another 10 frame box on top with a divider.  It is like a 5 frame nuc with a super above it, but since you have two nuc colonies, they can share some heat.

Do you add a candy board or other feed, or is the super enough?  And how about warmth?

I did throw a one inch thick insulation pillow over the lids, with a bottom board board to hold the insulation in place.  I am not doing any other feeding.

I was under the impression that M Palmer in Vt was putting his nucs over full hives for warmth.  It sounds like your nucs are doing fine without extra bee heat? 

The last I knew, Mike Palmer is starting to change his tune a little.  He's not sure that being on top of a colony is necessary for heat.  He thinks it might be more that the entrance is higher than the snow.  He talked like he was having success overwintering nucs that were stacked higher, but not on top of a colony.  I don't get near the snowfall he gets.

Fascinating, what publication or online was that mentioned on Countryboy? Did it mention any studies on the average generations it took to acclimatize? Any mention of effects on interstate bee's trucked round for pollination?

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0011096;jsessionid=88ACC1F8D6C652591F2BC72BE845EEA5.ambra02
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« Reply #37 on: February 03, 2011, 11:32:49 PM »

those are some good videos rdy.
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« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2011, 12:18:10 AM »

CountryBoy,

With regards to wintering your nucs, what are your thoughts on leaving out your nuc supers and replacing them with candy boards? 

If you left out the supers, you would have double the equipment for more nucs.  With a candy board over their heads, do they really need that super? 

Finally would hiving the nuc colony is a smaller volume (1 story instead of 2) help them winter better?  A smaller box is going to retain more bee heat than a bigger box.

Obviously swarming would be a concern, but what are your thoughts on this?

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« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2011, 10:50:52 PM »

With regards to wintering your nucs, what are your thoughts on leaving out your nuc supers and replacing them with candy boards?

I've never really understood candy boards.  As best that I can figure, candy boards are an emergency way of feeding if you goofed and didn't leave the bees enough honey.  I know that honey is a quality winter feed.

If you left out the supers, you would have double the equipment for more nucs. 

Not really, since I built the nuc supers especially for this purpose.  Unless you are just starting out, you likely have surplus equipment that isn't being used anyway.  There's always extra equipment in storage, and a few custom made pieces isn't that much more equipment.

With a candy board over their heads, do they really need that super? 

I guess it depends on your risk tolerance.  I don't have the stomach for that much risk.  Lots of things might work in an emergency situation - but I think it's best to try to avoid putting yourself in a situation to need those emergency safety nets.

I am reminded of a story of a king who wanted to hire a chariot driver.  Their interview involved them driving him on a narrow, winding mountain road, with a cliff on one side, and the mountain face on the other side.  The first driver drove with the wheel 1 foot from the edge of the cliff.  The second driver kept the wheel 6 inches from the cliff edge.  The third driver stayed as far away from the cliff edge as possible.  Which one do you think the king hired?

Finally would hiving the nuc colony is a smaller volume (1 story instead of 2) help them winter better?  A smaller box is going to retain more bee heat than a bigger box.

Why not stick them in a matchstick box?  It's smaller.

A smaller box limits their ability to have as much stores, and limits their ability for the cluster to get bigger.  Ideally, you want just enough space for the cluster, but that doesn't leave any extra space for honey stores.

The amount of heat a smaller box retains will not be very much.  Also, if the box does retain more heat, the bees will eat more stores...but a smaller box contains less honey too.

Keep in mind that bees like to move upwards in the winter.  Bees will overwinter better in a 5 frame nuc with a nuc super than they will in a single 10 frame box.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2011, 11:11:33 PM »

CountryBoy

Thanks for all the replies.  It is fascinating to me at least to learn about the unique ways explorers like yourself have experimented wintering bees.   Hence all the questions!   Most people stick with the traditional ways and it refreshing to see some new ideas from time to time.  Thanks for sharing your thoughts. 
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 03:16:39 AM by BlueBee » Logged
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