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Author Topic: Two Dead Hives.. Discourged.  (Read 7045 times)
kathyp
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« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2011, 11:30:28 PM »

i might be missing something, but those don't look like dead bees to me.  they also don't look like they are starved.  are you sure they were not just cold and not moving?  i know from first hand experience that this is a mistake that can be made!   Undecided
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2011, 04:48:22 AM »



I also have SBB which are closed, for the most part of the year.   Yes, closed also in Summer!  I open them only about an inch, when they start bearding.   They must also be closed for some VERY important 'other' reason!  (But that is another story)

Regards,
Trot

Fantastic post. Please more stories.

I have learned some of this already(the hard way).
Our winters here aren't anything like yours, but many times the bees can't move for long periods of time and starve.
Will have to re-read several times to get all the info to sink in. I think there are many little nuggets of gold in your post.


You sir, are a rare beekeeper.

Someone that has many years of experience and can learn from the printed word of others and apply that knowledge is unique I'm afraid.

Too many people, that claim to have 20 years experience in something, actually only have 1 year experience 20 times.

Please continue making comments on any topic that comes up. There will always be people that can't handle the truth.

But if you get it down here we can find it when we need it and are ready for it.

More power to you.
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« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2011, 09:06:32 AM »

Thank you all for your help!  Probably one of my problems, and most likely the biggest problem, is that I never really asked any questions specific to my issues.. It's cost me two dead hives.. All I can do is shake my head and look at the dead bees.

Anyways, I wanted to not only say Thank you for the reply, but I want to answer some of your questions you've posted in this topic of mine.. Sooooo Away we go!

Trot.. Thanks for an awesome post! It's been copied and posted over to my door in the basement!

KathyP.. Yea, they are dead... no movement at all.  I took one frame inside with the intent to pull a few bee's to throw under a microscope and those that are headfirst into the cells aren't moving. In fact none are moving in the 60+ temps in my basement.

Allen.. It never did reach freezing here on my little mountaintop that night. All frames that have the capped honey are still out there. Should I move them now? Deep Freeze?

Moisture problems?  I just don't know. I haven't seen any signs of mold or anything to do that could be moisture related, but then again.. I'm not experienced enough to advise.  One thing I did make sure of was to keep the SBB open and to make sure the inner cover was placed to allow for some slight venting.

I'm hoping to start out again from FatBeeMan with a couple of Packages.. He's only about 20 minutes from me, and these bee's are "from the area" whereas the dead ones were ordered from up north.  I'm also hopeful to get some Nuc's from FatBeeMan too. 

This weekend it'll be in the mid to upper 50's in my area so I hope to get out and clean both the hives. I'm sorry for the lack of Pictures from the other day.. I hope to do better this weekend!

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« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2011, 09:16:32 AM »

Ya, put the hive in the deep freezer until you get some bees from Don.  Let the hive warm up, dry off insode a couple of days before putting in the new bees.   The new bees will clean up the frames.
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kathyp
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« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2011, 10:11:35 AM »

head in and dying that way is a sign of starvation. 

you are smart to get local bees and lucky to have a good supplier close.  in spite of my other posts about small cell, he has a reputation for good bees.  that's a good thing.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2011, 03:19:59 PM »

I leave my supers on after extraction... that way when it's warm, they can eat all they want.

...DOUG
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2011, 04:27:33 PM »


But yet when they have stuck a hive of bees inside a freezer at -60 for a month, the bees were still alive...

Do have a link or reference to that?  That's pretty amazing.  We could all just forget about overwintering our bees and just pop them in the freezer till spring.  grin
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« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2011, 04:45:52 PM »

the difference is that he's claiming they stuck the hive in there.  you can't stick bees in without them freezing and dying.  the idea that bees don't heat the hive, at least a portion of it, doesn't even make sense.  even if the bees intended only to heat the cluster, the cluster would still radiate a certain amount of heat.  i will agree that the majority of the heat is retained in and close to the cluster, but the air around them is warmer also.

http://www.beebehavior.com/infrared_camera_pictures.php
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2011, 04:56:21 PM »

Thanks Kathy.  I was just reading an article about that.  

 http://74.125.155.132/scholar?q=cache:qJW0ro92txEJ:scholar.google.com/+author:Stabentheiner+%22Thermographic+Determination+of+Body+Temperatures+in+Honey+Bees+and+Hornets:+Calibration+and+Applications.%22&hl=en&as_sdt=0,34

Or here is the pdf.   http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/reproduccion/11_reproduccion_endotermia_invierno.pdf
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« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2011, 05:58:35 PM »

Thanks for the post Frameshift,

I’ve seen this before but I had forgotten how many good points they make.  Definitely a keeper to save on hand for the next round of arguments about wintering and bee metabolism rates in the winter.
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Trot
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« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2011, 08:05:51 PM »

Yes, I can write all the books I want, people still don't, won't get it.  Simply because they have it in their mind, that so is so, no other way will prove to them diferent.
I will tell you this, if snow melts from your covers, your bees are uncomfortable, not happy at all.  The only way, if they survive, is that you are lucky, cause you live in the area that has no real winter.
(About the snow melting?  C'mon lady, you like to be the sharpest pencil around?  Read again, think what I said?  But, don't mind me, read the books, read what others had said about the so called heat in the hive?)  
Such thinking is pure illusion!  Fulling self and others!
Please, don't just read and turn things around, to suit your cause and than rush and tear my house down.
I am the first man to admit that I don't know much about bees. (more I learn less I know)
But, I forgot more than others will ever know.  
All that aside, I do know how to keep them alive in the hardest winters, one can find anywhere that bees fly and man keeps them.  I also know that when bees die, where they shouldn't, all things being equal?  Than something is wrong and that such end is not fault of varroa, or fault of some 'entrance' that can't get past someones craw?
Varoa, a parasite, they have no intention of killing their host.  Their only intention is peaceful coexistence.  But, when the colony is dead, it is also the  easiest thing to tell, if it was varroa?  
Dead bees, dead Varroa.  As simple as that.  
The floor of the hive should be full of dead Varroa, cause they can't go anywhere.  Dead host, dead parasite!
Hive, where snow is melting from the roof is sure sign that something is alive in there, sure.  But that is all.  Being alive is one  -  being alive, comfortable, dry and content - that is something totally diferent.
Sorry lady, if my reply this time don't suit you either?  
I have a nasty habit to tell it the way it is and the way I see it.  My advanced years and 56 years with bees... That all put together, that gives me some rights.  I ran thousands of hives - for others, plus mine and I can count on fingers of my hand, for all the years when hives were lost - besides those over which human hand has no control.  (Failing, lost queen, bear, wind knocks them over and the like...)  
And I admit, that with the coming of Varroa  in 1986, I gave it all up, because I refused to treat my bees with all them poisons.  At the same time also, the Lord gave me the sign to quit - with broken back.  But I always had a few hives to keep me company, cause without bees, life is not worth living.  
I have been to the corner and back, more times than most and I have no intention on locking horns with those who refuse to entertain, even for a minute, something diferent than what their minds are set on.
Yes, chimney-effect is exactly what one should have in the hive.  But, chimney effect is exactly that what the word implies.  That means; bottom entrance and top entrance are aligned, are on the same side of the hive.  Than the chimney effect acts close to the wall, by air ever so gently drawing up and out, it gently pulls with it the moisture from the hive and your bees are dry and happy and alive come Spring.  
If chimney effect is not reached, than one has a 'cross-draft' which blows across the cluster and bees suffer and that is when the cold will kill them.  One should not have cross-draft, even in the Summer.  The only good point having it is; varroa likes it!

Cold... lady? Does cold scare you so much?  If you don't like it, keep warm, but don't make your bees suffer, cause to me it looks like you are doing your darnest to have them nice and warm, heee, hee...
Thinking wrongly, though, that they are nice and warm.  
How worm is that?  Why don't you and I stop fooling around?  My hive tops don't loose no snow, by melt from the heat below.  (heat from the cluster NOT the hive)  Yours do!  So, who got warmth and who is loosing it?  
Let the readers of this tread decide. . .
I can pull any book you would point out to me, from my library - or yours, if you have one, and in it find the right ansver.  Since you don't believe what I have to say?  Perhaps you would believe the words of others?
There is cold and then there is COLD!  One does not - the other does kill them.  
I will put it this way:  If bees have been prepared for winter the right way - cold will NOT kill them!  Most, I am itching to say all, most are lost to some sort of human error!
Bees that live under the top that melts its snow, they are only by a small stroke of luck still alive.  (Why? I mentioned it several times already.)

One more thing:  Go look on Internet, Google beekeepers across Manitoba, Alberta, etc...  
(It has been mentioned on this forum already, many a time, through the years...)  
There they bury their bees - thousands of hives - under the snow and they stay buried for months.  They are fine in the Spring though.

But, what do I know lady?  You got over 9 thousand posts?  I don't...
All I wanted to do is to give the gent here a piece of advice, cause he needs it.  He asked for it and he got it.  
(Like it or not)
How and what he plans to do with it, that is totally his doing.  
But, to my delight, I see that he is a man I thought he is.  He cares about bees. He cares about the craft, the art of keeping bees and he most likely won't see a repeat of situation that has befallen him this time.  I also see that he will get nucs from  Myron, Fatbeeman?  Myron has good bees and the man knows his bees, his craft and how to work with them properly.  
I have no intent on forcing nothing on nobody.  I only give advice which has been gathered with over tvo hundred years of family tradition by keeping bees, on two continents and tried by me and others.  Others way better than me, for the last 60 years or so, here and in Europe.

I can go on and on, cause there are more questions aching to be answered and answered right.  But, I don't want to bore nobody to sleep either, heeee, heee  Wink

Best regards and good luck to all...
Trot
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kathyp
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« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2011, 08:12:20 PM »

should i feel verbally spanked?  evil

lady...well, i have certainly been called worse....
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2011, 09:12:10 PM »

Trot’s Book Part 2!!!

This one is going on my door along with part 1 !

Kathy, I have read a lot of your posts, respect you highly, and love your inputs, but I don’t think you’re going to win this arguement... Wink

Trot, I make SURE all my hives have top vents because I fear you might come down and find me here in Michigan if I didn’t  grin

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kathyp
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« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2011, 09:21:58 PM »

BB you should never take the word of any of us, as gospel.  take the parts that make sense to you and go with it.  in the end, you end up with your own system and it will not be the same as any of ours.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2011, 09:34:17 PM »

And then we'll turn around and not take anything YOU say as gospel! Smiley

Scott
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« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2011, 09:34:32 PM »

This has got to be one of the classic quotes of the year:

“cause without bees, life is not worth living”, Trot 2011

Trot, I made a typo in my early post, I meant to say I use top ENTRANCES like you are saying.

Kathy you’re RIGHT, we do need to listen to everybody, and I do.  I try to learn as much from everybody here so I as I don’t screw up too many times.  I have read tons of your posts too.  Thank you so much for passing along so much of your knowledge too!
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Trot
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« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2011, 10:13:02 PM »

Thank you for the kind words WPG.

There is certainly much more to this whole thing, about wintering, cluster warmth, false assumptions, that I don't mention the notion, anchored in some minds, that bees heat the hive?
 I see that some new data has surfaced now?  
That too can be 'long and widely' debated.   All tests have faults if they are not performed carefully, in locales where problems are most evident and not in some locale which are hundreds, or even thousands of miles off.  Not performed by competent people and not performed by beekeeper, or at least under the watchful eyes of competent beeks.
Most of those test are done in Germany, by the way.  Germany is the only country where they bother at all to compile such answers to questions that elude us and will keep eluding us for long time to come.  Never will men learn all that is to learn about bees.  I have even today hard time accepting some facts which have been debunked with passing of time, or new ones that come along as this time rolls along.
What about all the thing they beat into our sculls in school and has proven now to be wrong?  
This imperfect science is no diferent.

If such scientific stuff is so hot?  If is so correct why they have such a hard time finding what is killing our bees?  Ansver is perhaps obvious, but nobody dare mentions it???

About the staff on posts now?
It all comes down to, where the tests were made?  Make identical tests in our winter and it will show that one inch, 3cm from the cluster, temperature will be equal to temp outside.  Take temp  reading on the cluster at -40 C, or lower and the surface of cluster will be as cold as the outside and/or any place inside of the hive.  In such cases bees on the cluster will freeze and if sun does not warm up the hive, such frozen bees will die - not from cold but from hunger.
(Especialy misleading are thermal photos, because they fool the human mind.  One sees with own eyes, the heat, and warm and cool/colder zones and mind registers it.  But reality is much, much more complex and diferent than the pictures.  Thermal camera registers everything that is even one iota diferent from the surroundings.  In reality, from bees point of view, that has no meaning at all.  For them is either warm to fly, or cold enough to cluster.  The colder it is, the tighter they cluster and harder they work to keep  the temps that enables them to stay alive and make it to the Spring thaw...
Life of a bee is as simple as that.  They dont give a hoot what temp is 3cm from the cluster?  What is in the corner of the box and what temp is at that particular moment outside or wherever?  They care for the temperature, core of the cluster to be just so.  That they have food, which is passed from mouth to mouth to the outside bees.  They care that the outside bees, most of the time frozen, wake up and are rotated to the inside of the cluster, to take a brake.  And perhaps they even prey to their keeper to prep them right, so  condensation does not gather on the inner cover and drip on them.  For wherever even one drop of water falls, on the cluster - it is like an ice bullet is shot through the ball.  All the bees are dead in short time and when there is a streak of dead bees through the cluster, it is like a hole has opened up and that hole disrupts the heated ball.  A few more such holes and the whole cluster is lost, cause the equilibrium, their concentration, the group effort to generate heat is slowly falling apart and one by one bees become immobile, become lifeless and eventually die, cause when immobile they are not able to eat, etc, etc. . .
It is slow and painful death, let me assure you.
 
No such tests as shown above has kept any of the bees alive.  They are only good to those who do them, cause they need them for their school or whatever they call those things?  They also generate money to the university labs, etc...   They have no actual value in hands of beekeepers who are trying to feed their families and pay the bills with their craft which we call beekeeping.
Those pictures above are perhaps done by at least two members who are frequent visitors/participants on some bee-forums.  their names I won't mention for obvious reasons...

You mentioned a true fact, that bees can't move and thus die.  That is so. It is a well proven fact!  
They can't or won't move down, period.  One can have all the honey beneath them - they will starve!  They will go down in warm enough weather though.  (I mention this in hope that Nitpickers don't jump me)  Smiley
They often can't move sideways either, cause of restrictions that combs itself pose to them.
The only way for bees in cold weather is for them to move up.  For the simple reason that all of the heat, that they generate by shivering, burning food, etc is escaping from the top of the cluster.  So heat raises, so do the bees.  But, when they reach the inner-cover their way, progression is halted.  If weather don't cooperate, they can't move  sideways and they are goners!  
To save them, one has to place man made food immediately above their heads to save them.  

I find that this problem is especialy true for the bees that are not acclimatized on cold/colder conditions than those from where they come from.  It takes the second year that the colony starts learning the ropes, as it were... But, this second year is for most novices far too often unattainable,  I am sorry to say. . .
People in regions, where they usualy don't experience winter, by this I mean, winter as in lower temps than what is normal for that time of the year?  In such instances the cold weather is a killer.  Bees have no experience, nor do they have any practise in such matters.  Say, they were flying day before - overnight fell snow and next day they just might all come out and die in the snow.  It is just their habit at work, more than anything else?
(They will live, if one picks them up, blow warm breath on them, until they wake up and put them back in the hive)  By doing this one will notice that house bees know that those bees have been in trouble and wont fight them.  They take them in without fuss.
I do that a lot in Spring, when maples bloom, is warm, but a few feet of snow still covers the ground.

So,  that is why last year many a beekeeper lost many a hive to this phenomena which is nowadays our weather.  
You people, down south, you have to be especialy prepared for such occurrences, because I believe that we will see more of that than has been the norm until now.  
We, up here in Canada, we don't have to wory so much about that, other than to prepare them right for winter and than forget about them.  For you, down south, it is a diferent story.

I get E-mails every day, most of them from Europe, about fallen colonies and I can't help in those cases either...  I expect a lot of bad news from all over the world as Spring nears..?
Nature is cruel.  We have to learn to roll with the punches and if using our wits right, we can also get ahead of the curve.

Thanks again and good luck...

Regards,
Trot
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Countryboy
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« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2011, 10:24:16 PM »

I've always heard there was a study done involving putting a hive of bees in a deep freeze at -60 for a month and the bees survived.  I'm having a hard time googling anything on it though...too many keywords.

Bees may not intend to heat the entire hive, but if you have a well insulated hive, the heat from the cluster does not dissipate as fast and the cluster actually begins to warm the interior of the hive.  When I remove the styrofoam from the top of a hive in winter, why do I feel a wave of hot air come out if the bees are not heating the interior of the hive?

People heat our own body.  We do not use our body to heat our home.  However, if you get a bunch of people in a room, the room warms up because of body heat.  A hive is the same way.
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« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2011, 11:01:28 PM »

Trot, what is your opinion on polystyrene (foam) hives?  I know Finski reports using them in Finland to great success.  What is your opinion of them?  Have you ever tried one?

You have given us so many gold nuggets in these books of yours.  I’m still sifting through all you’ve said. 

I am one of those ‘science types’, but I am smart enough to listen to somebody who has been so successful for so long is such an EXTREMELY cold climate. 
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« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2011, 09:44:06 AM »

I am one of those ‘science types’, but I am smart enough to listen to somebody who has been so successful for so long is such an EXTREMELY cold climate. 
I'm a biochemist and tend to be defensive when science is criticized. Science is very important to the future of all of us.  Even commercial beekeepers will benefit in the long run. But I have to admit that since the 1980s the practice of science has been dominated by the incursion of corporate business models into what was previously a more pure (and poor) practice of science for the sake of knowledge.  Scientists are just people, like everyone else and they like to be able to pay the rent.  Government funding of universities declined in the early 80s and was replaced by corporate funding which has a more directed agenda.
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"You never can tell with bees."  --  Winnie-the-Pooh
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