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Author Topic: beehive temp  (Read 15660 times)
Acebird
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« Reply #160 on: September 04, 2011, 02:14:48 PM »

Quote
The u.s. goverment advice is that highly insulated are worse that  no insulation at all (BEEKEEPING IN THE UNITED STATES
AGRICULTURE HANDBOOK NUMBER 335)which goes againsts the  scientific european research findings.


It is hard to make money if you are not selling a lot of equipment and bees.  We have a large country with drastic differences in climate.  Bee practices are not all the same unless you only look at small areas that have developed a method that works.  The tar paper is a method of breaking the wind and absorbing the radiant heat from the sun that Michael spoke about.  If your hive is greatly insulated tar paper will not work.  If your hive is made of a high R value insulation material what do you do in the summer when the bees don't need the heat?  Are you giving them a different hive or letting them deal with the heat?

I am asking, I don't know.  Which method produces the honey at the lowest cost, European, or American?
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boca
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« Reply #161 on: September 04, 2011, 02:43:26 PM »

The U.S. fashion is top entrance and top vents being open in winter? In heated structure thats the best way to get heat loss and rapid chilling of whatevers is inside due to the high convection airflow according to my degrees in physics and experience in the air handling industry.
(a bee hive is a heated structure) why do this  unless the intention is to stress the bees ?


Dave Cushman has the same opinion.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/ventilation.html
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boca
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« Reply #162 on: September 04, 2011, 02:52:56 PM »

I don't heat my house. I heat the stove only!
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Acebird
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« Reply #163 on: September 04, 2011, 04:10:50 PM »

Dave Cushman has the same opinion.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/ventilation.html


I don't think that Dave realizes that in very cold climates the moisture in a live tree freezes and splits the wood.  You can't see it because it is hidden by the bark but you can definitely hear it when it pops.  You can easily test the ventilation aspects of a feral colony by using a "leak test machine".  I suspect there is more ventilation in a tree hive then he thinks.
A managed hive, most likely will not have these splits in the wood unless it is a very old hive.  And even then bees survive just fine.  So the real question is which method produces more honey at a lower cost, sealed up plastic or top entrance hive?
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derekm
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« Reply #164 on: September 04, 2011, 04:30:44 PM »

Dave Cushman has the same opinion.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/ventilation.html


...  So the real question is which method produces more honey at a lower cost, sealed up plastic or top entrance hive?

no its open at the bottom, thats the point ...
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
derekm
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« Reply #165 on: September 04, 2011, 05:00:09 PM »

Dave Cushman has the same opinion.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/ventilation.html


I don't think that Dave realizes that in very cold climates the moisture in a live tree freezes and splits the wood.  You can't see it because it is hidden by the bark but you can definitely hear it when it pops.  You can easily test the ventilation aspects of a feral colony by using a "leak test machine".  I suspect there is more ventilation in a tree hive then he thinks.
A managed hive, most likely will not have these splits in the wood unless it is a very old hive.  And even then bees survive just fine.  So the real question is which method produces more honey at a lower cost, sealed up plastic or top entrance hive?
you dont need a cold climate for trees with splits... vis Salix fragilis is a common tree in the UK.
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
T Beek
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« Reply #166 on: September 04, 2011, 05:58:51 PM »

I don't heat my house. I heat the stove only!

 :lau:Now that's funny.  Is your stove outside?  Sorry, couldn't resist.  I feed my stove wood and it heats my house. 

How do you heat your stove (I'm thinking of something very funny, at least to me, but my girl think my sense of humor is warped).

thomas
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Finski
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« Reply #167 on: September 04, 2011, 11:19:43 PM »

I don't heat my house. I heat the stove only!

 :lau:Now that's funny.  Is your stove outside?  Sorry, couldn't resist.  I feed my stove wood and it heats my house.  

How do you heat your stove (I'm thinking of something very funny, at least to me, but my girl think my sense of humor is warped).

thomas

i know where boca lives.

I think that his stove is really outside couple of  miles away. It is a huge gas power plant which generates electrict and remote heat to buildings.

It may be too that bocas house is not connected to areal heating.

Look from google "vuosaari power plant"

.

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Finski
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« Reply #168 on: September 04, 2011, 11:58:46 PM »

Quote
The u.s. goverment advice is that highly insulated are worse that  no insulation at all (BEEKEEPING IN THE UNITED STATE.....
It is hard to make money if you are not selling a lot of equipment and bees.  We have a large country with drastic differences in climate. 

 If your hive is made of a high R value insulation material what do you do in the summer when the bees don't need the heat?  Are you giving them a different hive or letting them deal with the heat?

I am asking, I don't know.  Which method produces the honey at the lowest cost, European, or American?

i know the answer.

First 15 years I had US style hive boxes. They were simple wood and paractically no insulation. I hve then still in use as supers.

I covered brood boxes with 10 mm insulating board. That moisture seal made the boxes rotten fast. However winter food consumpition droppef 30%. It means that in 9 months wintering 6 months food was enough to next summer. I need not beef hives in spring. I only evened the food frames.

No hives died for starving after insulation.

When i bought first polystyrene hives, they were really expencive. However their spring build up was so fast that they payed back the cost during first summer.  the honey yield is clearly bigger than in cold hives because the colony has longer season to forage surpluss.

Polystyrene box weight is  1 kg. It is good to back.

You need only 2 insulated box to achieve those advantages.


Polystyre hives is conguring Britain now. It is 25 years later when next door neighbour Denmark invented the commercial polyhive Nacca.

Britain has huge hive costs. Their 10 frames cost more than the box. Frame cost is 2,5 bigger than in Sweden or Finland. The beekeeping industry really piss on hobbyits in Britain. They are mad with their cedar national hives.

Second thing is ply as hive material. I do not know worse material.  Beekeeping has much to
learn but and but and but.



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derekm
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« Reply #169 on: September 05, 2011, 04:47:59 AM »

Quote
The u.s. goverment advice is that highly insulated are worse that  no insulation at all (BEEKEEPING IN THE UNITED STATES
AGRICULTURE HANDBOOK NUMBER 335)which goes againsts the  scientific european research findings.


It is hard to make money if you are not selling a lot of equipment and bees.  We have a large country with drastic differences in climate.  Bee practices are not all the same unless you only look at small areas that have developed a method that works.  The tar paper is a method of breaking the wind and absorbing the radiant heat from the sun that Michael spoke about.  If your hive is greatly insulated tar paper will not work.  If your hive is made of a high R value insulation material what do you do in the summer when the bees don't need the heat?  Are you giving them a different hive or letting them deal with the heat?

I am asking, I don't know.  Which method produces the honey at the lowest cost, European, or American?

Who sold the u.S on the tar paper idea? it doesnt work. only one side out of six get heated, the other 5 are still losing heat all day. The number of hours of darkness are greater than the daylight (thats winters outside the tropics).  if you do the math it does not work unless your sun is so strong you can fry chicken on the tar paper (180C).

In summer you open your top vent that you kept closed all winter
« Last Edit: September 05, 2011, 07:38:44 AM by derekm » Logged

If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
Finski
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« Reply #170 on: September 05, 2011, 06:41:38 AM »


Tar paper.
Actually if you use transparent plastic, it catch better the sun heat.
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derekm
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« Reply #171 on: September 05, 2011, 07:56:56 AM »

here is the proof that tar paper doesnt work the way people think.
the average temperature in the box is when the heat losses equal the heat gains. The heat loss or gain is proportional to the temp difference multiplied by the time by the proportion of  surface area  being heated or cooled.

lets make things simple the fraction of the day that is daylight and hot sunshine is t and therefore fraction night is (1-t). The fraction of the box exposed to sun is B. The differnce between the box and night temp is N and the difference between box and sun lit surface is S

B.t/(1-t) = N/S. (this equation is an approximation to the full solution)

so if we have a 6hours of day light and the sun only reaches one side in six of a cube, then the difference between the box temp and the sunlit surface is 18 times the temp difference between the box temp and night time temperatures. 
example:
ambient = zero C
sun facing surfacetemp = 54C (that a temp too hot to keep your hand on for more than few seconds)
Average boxtemp 3C

lets go the other way:
ambient -20C
required box box temp -10c
then sunlit surface temp  needs to be +160C
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
T Beek
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« Reply #172 on: September 05, 2011, 08:09:12 AM »


Tar paper.
Actually if you use transparent plastic, it catch better the sun heat.

derekm; Not sure that your equation proves anything.  

Finski; I believe plastic would keep moisture (and any other harmful gases) inside.  Tar paper allows moisture to escape while protecting from wind and providing warmth on sunny days.  100 years of use by beekeepers around the globe is good enough for me.

thomas
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boca
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« Reply #173 on: September 05, 2011, 09:08:46 AM »

B.t/(1-t) = N/S. (this equation is an approximation to the full solution)

so if we have a 6hours of day light and the sun only reaches one side in six of a cube, then the difference between the box temp and the sunlit surface is 18 times the temp difference between the box temp and night time temperatures.  

That is a neat explanation. Physics not believes.

Tar paper allows moisture to escape while protecting from wind and providing warmth on sunny days.  100 years of use by beekeepers around the globe is good enough for me.

Blood-letting was used for several hundreds of years for curing illnesses. It must work now as well.

Even if tar paper provides warmth on sunny days it is little help. Warmth is needed on dark and cold nights.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2011, 09:22:16 AM by boca » Logged
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