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Author Topic: beehive temp  (Read 15049 times)
Finski
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« Reply #140 on: February 05, 2011, 12:49:10 AM »


I was raised in an underground home with a woodburning stove until we got free gas heat after they drilled an oil and gas well on the farm.  We opened the door if it got too hot.

Hmmm, that explains why many Americans are not able to protect their hives from cold....

If I live over gasfield I would surely move from underground and move to south to palm hut.
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CapnChkn
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« Reply #141 on: February 05, 2011, 05:38:11 AM »

Countryboy, I never said the inside of the hive didn't get warmer because of the bees.  I said the bees didn't heat the inside of the hive.  Finski said I said that.  Finski heats his hives anyway.
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Finski
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« Reply #142 on: February 05, 2011, 05:52:58 AM »

Countryboy, I never said the inside of the hive didn't get warmer because of the bees.  I said the bees didn't heat the inside of the hive.  Finski said I said that.  Finski heats his hives anyway.


Cap boy, you are just wrong. I have kept 48 years bees in harsh environment and you have nothing to teach me.

I do not  heat my hives  anyway. We have here 4 000 other beekeepers and they have no more problems to over winter bees than usual.

Murfreesboro is not a place wher you learn to over winter hives. You have there summer weathes all year around.


http://www.wunderground.com/US/TN/Murfreesboro.html
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Finski
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« Reply #143 on: February 05, 2011, 06:28:33 AM »

.
I have 30 hives,  and just now 5 smallest hives has a heater.

The lowest temp of this winter on my hive yard has been -30C / -22F

Here you may follow my weather. Station is 10 miles from my hives.

http://ilmatieteenlaitos.fi/saa/Kouvola?parameter=4&map=weathernow&station=2830
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Countryboy
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« Reply #144 on: February 05, 2011, 11:55:01 PM »

Hmmm, that explains why many Americans are not able to protect their hives from cold....

Not many Americans live in underground homes.  Many do not understand what it is like to have a home that stays about 55 degrees if you do not heat it because of the insulation properties of earth.

Most Americans think the way to heat a home is by adjusting a thermostat control on the wall. 

The royalties from the gas and oil for the landowner was not enough to move to tropical weather.  The big benefit of having the well was having free natural gas for heating and cooking.
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T Beek
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« Reply #145 on: February 06, 2011, 02:05:06 PM »

Having built and lived in a cordwood home with 27 inch walls for the past 29 years I can relate to living underground.  It was a choice I also considered at the time, but getting the equipment in would have cost as much as the house.

Finski:  I suspect your take on what American Beeks are capable of is a bit skewed, as I know many who keep bees quite well (as well as you) in northern climes as harsh as yours (I don't beleive you know as many American beeks as your pre-conceived notions proclaim).  

Not all Beeks spend their time on bee forums you know rolleyes (I'm assuming that's where your viewpoint comes from).

thomas
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 03:36:20 PM by T Beek » Logged

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Finski
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« Reply #146 on: February 06, 2011, 03:04:28 PM »

Not all Beeks spend their time of bee forums you know rolleyes (I'm assuming that's where your viewpoint comes from).

thomas

Really! WHY? 

In Finland we have 4200 registered beekeepers and only under 1% visit on forum during one week. 

I think that you have more Beekeepers Associations than we have beekeepers.

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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #147 on: February 08, 2011, 11:33:45 PM »

Not all Beeks spend their time of bee forums you know rolleyes (I'm assuming that's where your viewpoint comes from).

thomas

Really! WHY? 

In Finland we have 4200 registered beekeepers and only under 1% visit on forum during one week. 

I think that you have more Beekeepers Associations than we have beekeepers.


You're probably right about that Finski.  But I do know one thing, that is that the beekeepers who haunt this forum are inqisitive and admit they don't know it all, but are willing to learn by exchanging ideas irregardless of how stupid they may sound.  After all, the only real stupid 2question is the one that never gets asked..  The know it all beekepers dont visit, or at least don't post, on the forum because they are afraid to show their ignorance.
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derekm
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« Reply #148 on: August 15, 2011, 08:15:13 AM »

Two temperature probes one at bottom of the brood box one at the top on British national standard wooden hive, with 2 supers no insulation last night and this morning

5pm: out side temp 20C  bottom temp 30C top temp 34C
10pm: bottom temp 30C top temp 40c
7am bottomtemp 30c top temp 44C out side temp 10c.

it seems they really stoke the fires overnight on cool summer nights  to keep the brood warm- this could be as high as 75 to 100W. I was worried about winter honey consumption, this is much bigger  6 month of average 10c at night  at this power is 50Kg of honey.
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
BlueBee
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« Reply #149 on: August 15, 2011, 01:39:47 PM »

Oh no, not this dreaded thread again…

Derekm, I thought you were using foam insulated hives?  In the summer your bee population is a lot higher than in the winter so that may account for some of the extra wattage.  

Interesting data.  I don’t know your UK weather, is there a chance the mass of the hive and the sun load could be resulting in a long thermal time constant and pushing the peaks temps into the night as well?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2011, 02:31:38 PM by BlueBee » Logged
derekm
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« Reply #150 on: August 15, 2011, 01:55:58 PM »

I'm Converting to PU this is my control hive at the mom ent. We have coolish summers 30c is a heatwave. A week below 0c in winter is remarked on. Annual rainfall is around 1m, with a wide toplogical variation. Surprisingly small variation from shetland to the channel islands considering its from 50N to 60N
« Last Edit: August 15, 2011, 02:44:28 PM by derekm » Logged

If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
Acebird
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« Reply #151 on: August 15, 2011, 04:04:44 PM »

5pm: out side temp 20C  bottom temp 30C top temp 34C
10pm: bottom temp 30C top temp 40c
7am bottomtemp 30c top temp 44C out side temp 10c.

it seems they really stoke the fires overnight on cool summer nights  to keep the brood warm-

I am not sure how you are doing you calculations but the bottom temp is pretty consistant at 30 C.
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CapnChkn
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« Reply #152 on: August 16, 2011, 01:55:54 PM »

Ah HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

It's the thread that wouldn't die!  BEES HEAT THE CLUSTER NOT THE HIVE!

Commence Fighting!
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derekm
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« Reply #153 on: September 03, 2011, 07:08:50 PM »

read

 Villumstad, E. (1974). Importance of hive insulation for wintering, development and honey yield in Norway. Apiacta 9, 116-118
 WINTER-HARDINESS OF BUCKFAST BEES UNDER SPECIFIC WEATHER CONDITIONS OF AREAS WITH ALTERNATING INFLUENCES OF MARITIME AND CONTINENTAL CLIMATE
Olszewski Journal of Apicultural Science

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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
Michael Bush
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« Reply #154 on: September 03, 2011, 09:14:09 PM »

Insulation still changes the heat loss of the cluster, whether they are intentionally heating the hive or not.  Anyone who has stayed in a large unheated tent or a small unheated tent in the winter can tell the difference.  A double walled ten is warmer than a single wall.  A white one is warmer than a dark one.  All these things play into how warm you are.  It's a gross oversimplification to say that the bees don't heat the hive so nothing else matters.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesscientificstudies.htm#overwintering

I am not attempting here to explain the answer to all the thermodynamics of a hive, but merely to try to outline the question and show that the metrics are more complicated than they first appear. Let's see how many significant aspects of the thermodynamics of a wintering hive we can list:

o Temperature. This is the simple one. It's easy to measure temperature by putting a thermometer where you want to measure it. Measure the temperature of the distant points in the hive and in the cluster and on the edge of the cluster and outside the hive. These are the "facts" usually used to try to explain the thermodynamics of a winter hive. These facts are one very small piece of the whole picture.

o Heat production. The cluster is producing heat. You can argue all day that they don't heat the hive, and obviously that is not their intent, but they do produce heat in the hive and that heat dissipates into the hive and, depending on other factors, into the outside, at some rate. This is a "thermostatically" controlled source of heat in that the bees will produce more heat as the temperatures decline to make up for heat loss, or less as it warms up. The temperature in your house is the same with the back door open or closed, but that doesn't mean that leaving it open doesn't matter. A thermostatically controlled environment can be misleading when we try to measure it in temperature and don't take into account heat loss.

o Respiration. There is a change in humidity in the hive caused by the metabolic processes of the bees. This water is put into the air by respiration. It is warm and moist air. This changes the humidity and the humidity changes other aspects.

o Humidity. The moisture in the air changes many other aspects of the thermodynamics as it causes more heat transfer by convection, more heat that is stored by the air, more condensation and less evaporation. We express this difference when referring to the weather in things like "it was hot but it was a dry heat" or "it wasn't the cold, it was the dampness".

o Condensation. Condensation of water gives off heat. There is water condensing on the cold sides and lid of the hive all through the winter and this affects the temperature. Condensation is caused by a temperature difference between a surface and the air contacting that surface. It occurs when the humidity of the air is high enough that when the air is cooled on the surface, the air (now cooler) can no longer hold that amount of humidity.

o Evaporation. Water that has condensed and run down the sides to the bottom or dripped on the bees, evaporates. This absorbs heat as it evaporates. Wet bees have to burn up a huge amount of energy to evaporate water that has dripped on them. Puddles of water on the bottom continue to absorb heat until they evaporate.

o Thermal Mass. The mass of all of the honey in the hive holds heat and dissipates heat over time. It changes the time period over which changes in temperatures occur. It holds a lot of the heat that is in the hive. A lot of cold honey can keep a hive cold even when it's warm out. A lot of warm honey can keep a hive warmer even when it's cold out. It moderates the effects of temperature changes and it holds and gives off heat. This is more related to the amount of heat in the system than the temperature. A large mass of moderate temperature may actually hold more heat than a small mass of higher temperature.

o Air Exchange. I am splitting this out from convection, although convection is involved, because I am differentiating an exchange of air with the outside as opposed to convection taking place within the hive. Outside air coming into the hive is essential to the bees having enough oxygen for aerobic metabolism , but the more of it there is the more it affects the temperatures in the hive. If this is minimized during winter, the temperature in the hive will exceed the temperature outside the hive. If it is too minimized the bees will suffocate. If it is too maximized the bees will have to work much harder to maintain the heat of the cluster. Even if you were to increase this gradually to the point of the inside and outside temperatures being indistinguishable, more air exchange from that point would not change the temperatures, inside, outside or of the cluster but WILL cause more heat loss to the cluster thereby causing them to make more heat to compensate. If you rely only on measuring temperature you will not see this difference.

o Convection within the hive. Convection is how an object with some thermal mass and therefore some kinetic heat, loses its heat to the air. The air on the surface either picks up or gives off heat (depending on the direction of the heat difference) and if the air heats up it rises bringing more cool air into its place. If it cools it sinks bringing more warm air into its place. Things that block air or divide it into layers will add to warmth. That's how things like blankets and quilts work. They create dead space where the air can't move so easily. A vacuum thermos works on the principle that if there is no air, it can't carry away the heat by convection. The more open space there is in the hive, the more convection can take place. The more you limit things to layers the less convection takes place. We sometimes refer to an excess of convection in our houses as "it was 70 degrees in the house but it was drafty".

o Conduction. Conduction is how the heat moves through an object. Take the outside wall of a hive. At night if it's colder outside, it absorbs heat from the inside that comes from convection (warmer air against its surface) and heat from radiation (heat radiating from the cluster) and that heat warms the wood. The rate at which that heat moves through the wood to the outside is its conductivity. The heat is conducted to the outside where convection carries off the heat from the surface. On a sunny day on the South side, the sun will heat the wall, the heat will move by conduction through the wall to the inside where convection will transfer the heat to the air. Insulation or Styrofoam hives will slow down conduction.

o Radiation. Radiation is the process in which energy is emitted by one body, transmitted through an intervening medium or space without significantly affecting the temperature of the medium, and absorbed by another body. A heat lamp or heat from a fire are tangible examples of this. In the case of a wintering hive the two main sources of radiant heat are the cluster and the sun. During a sunny day the radiant heat of the sun hits the side of the hive and turns into kinetic heat and is transferred by conduction to the inside of the hive. The radiant heat from the cluster hits the surrounding combs of honey and walls, cover and bottom. Some is absorbed by the honey and walls, and some is reflected back. The amount is dependent on how close the cluster is and how reflective the surface is. Real life experience of radiant heat would be being in the sun on an otherwise cool day or putting a thermometer in the sun and getting a dramatically different reading than one in the shade.

o Temperature differences. The amount of the difference in temperatures between the cluster and the outside is a significant factor. If your outside temperatures in winter average say 32 F and your lows are rarely 0 F the significance of some of these things may be minimal. On the other hand if your winters often have subzero temperatures of -20 to -40 F for long periods then these issues are much more significant.

The real question is, "How do all of these interact in a wintering hive?"

One clue to understand some of it is by watching the bees. They adjust based on what they are experiencing as far as heat loss, rather than what it says on the thermometer. The cluster is drawn to the place where they lose less heat. This should be a clue to us on where and how they are losing heat.

My point is, if you look at most things they are much more complicated than a simple measurement and yet we have a tendency to try to reduce them to that.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #155 on: September 03, 2011, 10:12:36 PM »

Makes me shiver just thinking about it.  But I don't know why!

Having fun!
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Finski
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« Reply #156 on: September 03, 2011, 11:57:47 PM »

Ah HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

It's the thread that wouldn't die!  BEES HEAT THE CLUSTER NOT THE HIVE!

Commence Fighting!


HAhAhA  AND HAH!

Bees heat the hive too because heat escapes from the cluster.

A human doest not heat the world  but himself. However human keeps clothes on to hinder heat leaking from the body. The hive is like clothes to human.

The heat inside the hive keeps relative moisture  lower than outside. That is why hives a resticted to small for wintering. Extra space off.
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derekm
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« Reply #157 on: September 04, 2011, 01:33:08 PM »

I' m confused by U.S. Bee keeping... it takes 100lbs to 140lbs of honey to get colony through a winter with 50 to 60% failure yet in Europe
In cold and  wet climates (norway poland)  European scientific research has measured that Bees need only 8 to 12kg thats 20lbs to 30lbs, with lower failure rates...

The U.S. fashion is top entrance and top vents being open in winter? In heated structure thats the best way to get heat loss and rapid chilling of whatevers is inside due to the high convection airflow according to my degrees in physics and experience in the air handling industry.
(a bee hive is a heated structure) why do this  unless the intention is to stress the bees ?

In Europe highly insulated hives are the norm following the research done in the late fifities to early seventies, but  in the u.s. it wood with optional tar paper, why?

The u.s. goverment advice is that highly insulated are worse that  no insulation at all (BEEKEEPING IN THE UNITED STATES
AGRICULTURE HANDBOOK NUMBER 335)which goes againsts the  scientific european research findings.

  I am  thinking Honey and bees must be so cheap in the U.S.,  that they can be thrown away each year.  

That difference of 70lbs of honey is worth £300 or $450 per hive here. A new buckfast queen  costs $45
 A  nucleus" package" of 5 frames of brood in all stages and a mated queen is £150 that $210.



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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
BlueBee
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« Reply #158 on: September 04, 2011, 01:54:01 PM »

This is America; a lot of things we do over here don’t make logical sense!

I suspect many northern bee keepers do insulate their hives to some degree in the winter, but clearly there is confusion how to do it effectively.  We are certainly not as refined as the European’s in this area.

Michael Bush, I liked your summary of the variables involved.
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T Beek
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« Reply #159 on: September 04, 2011, 02:03:02 PM »

For me and mine I try to have my 'hives' weighing at least 100lbs (that's honey 'and' bees) by end of September.  More would be great, our winters are six months 'plus' long.  

My vent/feed boxes, which are placed above a notched inner cover (top entrance) is ideally on top of 4 full medium supers, but I've overwintered bees in as few as two.  

With the addition of 2" rigid insulation (now blocking vent holes in vent box) inside and over dry sugar my hives are ready for winter wrapping w/ tar paper which serves as an insulating envelope and allows heat to obsorb on sunny days.  I've kept bees wrapped and unwrapped successfully, I like to do what I can and wrapping is an easy thing.

Rather than heat loss, I'm much more concerned w/ excessive moisture and bee gas during extreme winters, and I believe top entrances assist w/ the elimination of these issues.

(not all US beekeepers have the losses quoted) (the prices for UK bees quoted are comparable to US)
(assumptions are for rolleyes)

thomas
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