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Author Topic: beehive temp  (Read 15768 times)
T Beek
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« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2011, 08:14:50 AM »

Of course, you all realize that much of the above speculation and opinion is entirely dependant on location, right? Smiley

Mine too evil

thomas
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2011, 08:45:07 AM »

Last winter was very hard. It was -20C when i opened the nuc cover . Thre was a twist size cluster which filled half of the 4 frame hive. The other half was filled with snow, which was from bees respiration.  bees were in good condition and I put 3 W heating there.

Wow.  Finski is opening a nuc at -20C  (-4F.)  Most folks are afraid to open a full hive at less than 10C (50F).    I'd really like to hear what experience others have had in short-term opening of hives at low temps.

Finski, when you open hives at low temperatures, what does the cluster do?  Do the bees break cluster or just sit there and buzz?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2011, 09:00:29 AM by FRAMEshift » Logged

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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2011, 08:55:32 AM »

British beekeepers do not understand the meaning of insulation and moisture.
They add ventilaton when they want to dry up the hive.

I think that in warmer climates like North Carolina, the use of insulation is a little different.  Top insulation does not change the overall  temperature of the hive, because ventilation is more important in determining what the overall temperature will be.  But top insulation makes the top warmer than the sides.  That moves condensation to the sides where it can run off without dripping on the cluster.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2011, 09:12:15 AM by FRAMEshift » Logged

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Acebird
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« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2011, 09:15:59 AM »

Quote
Bees collect themselves around the heater and they need not eate so much.

Finski, wasn’t it you that was preaching bees eat less when it is colder and more when it is warmer?

Moisture is better vented from the bottom so a draft is not created.  When you let warm air out you cause cold air to come in.  One cannot happen without the other.  Moisture on the other hand does not need air flow to dissipate.  It will travel in all directions equally.  So an open bottom will let the moisture out and if the top is closed no cold air will come in.


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T Beek
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« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2011, 09:30:53 AM »

Its actually a FACT, that bees will consume less as it gets colder (at a certain point they just CAN'T move until a warm up and NO I don't know what that point/temp is....cold I guess Wink), so much so that they will starve, haven't we been over all this fairly recently???

The lowest temp I've ever opened one of my own hives was 30 F, sunny with no wind.  The colony did fine come Spring.  I opened to feed and am glad I did.

I was inside this particular hive with cover off for less than 5 minutes. I'm quicker now, even though I'm older huh

I've gone in others many times at 35 F with no losses due to such checking.  My bees are usually flying in 35F and sunny weather while cluster is still in place.  

35F "seems" to be the temp "my" bees are most willing to risk cleansing and undertaking duties, but that's JUST ME and MINE.

I am waiting for just such a day right now, and it sounds like it may occur Friday, if we can believe the "experts." Smiley

If Finski has really been inside his hives at -4 then perhaps we're all being too cautious.

All said, Northern Wisconsin has had a comparatively mild winter this season, I think you folks South and East got alot of it instead Wink  Maybe it will all go back to normal next year,, right?Huh?

thomas
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2011, 10:11:13 AM »

Finski, wasn’t it you that was preaching bees eat less when it is colder and more when it is warmer?

There are two reasons why the bees consume food in the winter.  They eat to provide energy to move around and they eat to warm the hive.  If it's warm enough to move around and fly, then reducing the temperature so they stop moving would reduce food consumption.  So colder means less consumption in that particular temperature range.  But more generally, if it's too cold to move then they consume more food as it gets colder in order to maintain hive warmth.
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  Moisture on the other hand does not need air flow to dissipate.  It will travel in all directions equally. 

Don't think so.  When we say moisture, we are generally talking about water vapor in the air.... the relative humidity.   So moisture moves with the air because it's part of the air.  Once it condenses out as liquid water it flows downhill only.
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Finski
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« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2011, 10:45:35 AM »

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That old plaa plaa with common sence. Ventilation and heat issues are researched well.

I do not start again.

My bees like warm and they have not moisture proplems.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2011, 11:55:27 AM »

I agree with Finski, my bees are doing just fine in their warmer and dryer insulated hives.
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Acebird
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« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2011, 12:43:31 PM »

Quote
Don't think so.  When we say moisture, we are generally talking about water vapor in the air.... the relative humidity.   So moisture moves with the air because it's part of the air.  Once it condenses out as liquid water it flows downhill only.


does not need air flow to dissipate

Of course air flow will transfer more moisture from one area to another but in a dead airspace where there is no air current it will move in all directions.  If you create a chimney effect you essentially cause a draft.  Every cubic foot of warm air that leaves the hive will be replaced with an equal amount of cold air.  There is no avoiding that.  So I am inclined to believe it is better to have an open bottom with no air flow to let the moisture (vapor) escape the hive.  Maybe I am wrong…
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2011, 01:31:32 PM »

So I am inclined to believe it is better to have an open bottom with no air flow to let the moisture (vapor) escape the hive.  Maybe I am wrong…
I'm saying that water vapor is just a component of the air.  It is a gas, not a liquid.  It does not dissipate or move anywhere unless the air moves.  If it condenses to a liquid, it could soak into the wood or run down out of the hive.  But as long as it's a gas, it moves with the other gases that constitute air.  

How can you have an open bottom without air flow?  If it's open, the wind results in volume exchanges of the air in the hive.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2011, 01:44:43 PM by FRAMEshift » Logged

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Finski
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« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2011, 01:34:42 PM »


Of course air flow will transfer more moisture from one area to another but in a dead airspace where there is no air current it will move in all directions.

If the hive is in a shelter, which have no air flow, the colonies get a bad nosema.

If the hive has 25 kg food stores, it generates 10 litre water via respiration, That is the water which you arrange out from the hive during half a year, and of course 15kg carbon diokside too.

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Acebird
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« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2011, 02:50:42 PM »

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It does not dissipate or move anywhere unless the air moves.


Do a little research on gases and how they mix.  Your statement is false.  In the case of moisture, higher moisture moves in the direction of less moist air.  Just like heat transfers to cold.  There doesn't need to be air flow.  Think of a coke bottle with a little water in it.  The water will dry up without any air flow.

Quote
How can you have an open bottom without air flow?  If it's open, the wind results in volume exchanges of the air in the hive.


There is very little air flow next to the ground even in high wind situations.  If you cover the bottom of a hive with snow there is virtually no air flow.  Now bear in mind that that does not mean there are no changes of gases (oxygen or co^2) or moisture for instance.
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stonecroppefarm
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« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2011, 12:40:14 AM »

First, I am not sure sure about my hypothesis, maybe.

next, BlueBee, I will checkout as much as I can Tuesday if temps are not too bad.

And FRAMEshift, about the warmup, I said I have too much time. the 2in insulating jacket is in four parts a top, a bottom , a back portion that covers the back and 2/3s of each side and a front portion that covers the front and 1/3 of each side. since the front  is facing south (sun) I slide the front portion off each morning that there is sufficient sun and watch the temp in the hive begin to climb rather rapidly and as you pointed out, on the sunny day or two that I did not get out to remove the front portion of the insulation the hive temp increased significantly slower.

This surprised me, on the very cold night we had I threw a rather heavy movers blanket over the hive around 7PM when the hive temp had dropped to 42deg F, immediately the hive temp began to rise up to 45 deg. I can't believe that the blanket alone would make such a difference. could the bees have sensed my presence and the motion of the blanket and become a bit excited?
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Finski
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« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2011, 10:46:36 AM »



This surprised me, on the very cold night we had I threw a rather heavy movers blanket over the hive around 7PM when the hive temp had dropped to 42deg F, immediately the hive temp began to rise up to 45 deg. I can't believe that the blanket alone would make such a difference. could the bees have sensed my presence and the motion of the blanket and become a bit excited?

One winter I put winter plancets over the hives. I wonder why one hive start to fly out. I put a digital trermometer inside the hive and temp was +42C / 107 F

Next morning temp was 35C / 95F

24 hours later temp was normal winterin temp 23C/ 73F

I just walked around the hive and I did not even touched it. I opened the cover and cluster was totally spreaded in the hive.

What ever, if you look from internet the effects of cold has been monitored very well along decades.

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BlueBee
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« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2011, 11:31:44 AM »

It sounds like Finski has found a new dinner entrée over there in Finland:  Fried bees and beans  grin

I agree with Finski about the dangers of covering a foam hive.  If you block the air vents with a blanket (and reduce air infiltration), you’re forcing more of the bee heat to try to escape thru the R10 walls of the insulation.  Heat doesn’t pass very quickly thru R10 walls and hence the heat starts to build up in the hive.  As Finski says, you have to be careful or it can get too hot, but 45F is fine.

Ron, I know you’re very worried about the temperatures and humidity, and that’s great, but what are the bees telling you?  When you get a warmer day there in NE, take a peak.  I bet they’re doing great.
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stonecroppefarm
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« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2011, 09:40:05 PM »

BlueBee, thanks for the response and encouragement, I think the bees are doing all right. It turns out that they should not be alive, it was about 3lbs of bees from a removal with some brood comb, no honey, the remover kept that of course. this was end of August so we had no hope for wintering over, but it was hands on experience for a novice (me). I fed them, they consumed 3 lbs of sugar a day in a 1:1 syrup. and probably more than doubled in colony size, still only 7, 8 or 9 lbs of bees?  When I told the gentleman that gave me the bees end of august that they were still alive early Jan. he could not believe this.

I said I have more time than I need, not really so, but being inquisitive will be the death of me, always was, and since I had the sensor need I say more.

now here is the mystery. a common observation -- today mid afternoon temp 35deg F, inside hive temp 46deg. eight hours later the outside temp has dropped to 24deg, inside hive temp has risen to 51 deg. WHAT IS WITH THIS? outside temp drops, shouldn't the temp in the hive? why are the bees raising the temperature?

any ideas anyone?
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Finski
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« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2011, 10:26:48 PM »

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Bluebee, it is interesting to read what Finski says. I did not understand a bit.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2011, 10:29:25 PM »

Ron, I agree with Finski. 

I would also add what you're seeing is the beauty of insulation and a good sign from your bees….your bees are making heat, they’re alive, they’re alive!!!  I assume you’ve also verified they’re alive by putting your ear up to the hive?

The heat the bees are generating, does not readily escape when you’ve got them enclosed in a home with R10 insulated walls, basement, and ceiling!  That means the watts of energy the bees are generating is going to warm the hive (as well as the cluster) before it escapes out your top vent.   So the bees are going to feel like they’re living in Georgia as opposed to New England.  They’re not going to experience any sharp temperature changes in that much foam.

With foam, you’ll see the temperature lags you’re seeing due to the thermal mass inside the hive and the fact that heat does not go in or out of the system quickly with R10 walls.  This means they don’t warm up as fast in the morning and they don’t cool down very fast at night.  They’re not going to experience any sharp temperature changes in that much foam.

I used to live in New England (Westboro and Durham), I agree with your local BK, I think your small colony of bees would be toast if not insulated.   Just make sure your setup isn’t trapping too much moisture when you peak at them and make sure they have food.  In a foam hive they don’t eat as much so you’re probably ok on food.
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Countryboy
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« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2011, 11:13:40 PM »

Ideal wintering temp is supposedly about 0 C for maximum efficiency of honey.  Any warmer or colder and the bees eat more honey.  I have heard Canadian beekeepers who overwinter inside barns that they have a little better overwintering % when they keep the building 3-5 C.  The extra honey the bees eat is minimal, and the added survival easily pays for the cost of the honey consumed.

I have heard that a winter cluster with higher varroa will have a higher internal temperature.  Call it a 'fever' of sorts.  For whatever reason, this seems to be one of the natural responses of bees fighting varroa.
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Finski
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« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2011, 02:44:36 AM »

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I have never heard about ideal wintering

in  cellar or in warmed chest wintering the temp must be under 7C and dark + mechanical ventilation

hives prode quite much heat.

 
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