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Author Topic: beehive temp  (Read 15604 times)
Finski
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« Reply #80 on: January 29, 2011, 01:30:36 AM »

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Sorry guys.

Hive temp issues has been reported in internet with your mother language. You need not invent a wheel or read my wrong information.

You write all kind of crap and blame me that I know best and Finland is only cold place. PAH!

Those cold researches has been done in US bee laboratories. No sence to start measure in nature what is going on and get expencive instrumenst.


Why I bother you is that Florida and Los Angeles beekeepers give their advices to Alaska and all is pure nonsence.

Sorry that I came again to disturb your  big egos and big inventions.

Mostly question is not that someone tells wrong things. Main point is that if some one really needs advices he is interested and want to learn. In this from there are planety of guys who only want to be a king on the dung heap.

I have left this forum couple of times before because I have better to do than fight with dung kings.

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BlueBee
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« Reply #81 on: January 29, 2011, 07:32:03 AM »

Finski,

PLEASE don’t leave us.  Those of us in the Northern USA really appreciate your knowledge and experience because we know where Finland is located!   We know you know what you’re talking about.  Please don’t let a few distracters drive you away, I’m sure there is a HUGE silent majority of readers who really values your input and experience.  Finski, PLEASE stay with us.   

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T Beek
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« Reply #82 on: January 29, 2011, 09:11:39 AM »

He'll be back, he really loves us all, even those who argue grin

thomas
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Acebird
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« Reply #83 on: January 29, 2011, 09:18:10 AM »

Quote
Acebird, the options are:

•Heating the entire cavity
•Heating the cluster
•Not heating anything

Please explain the middle option, heat the cluster.

We will assume this is for the hobbyist with no more than 10 hives and they are accessible through the whole winter season.  That alone is going to weed out a large percentage of this forum but if we don’t make these assumptions it doesn’t appear to me that this game plan is practical.

First question:
How does one accomplish this task?

Is this going to be something like what has been discussed on this site?  Stick a Christmas tree bulb in the hive and that is it?  Will it be a sophisticated temperature controlled device or just a constant burning bulb?  Please give details on how this is done.

Next question:
What is the logic?
If a small amount of heat is the answer couldn’t you just move your hives 200 miles south for the winter?  In Florida they call humans that move south “snow birds”, we could call them “bee birds”.  The thing about snow birds is that they buzz around scantily dressed down there and then have a hard time acclimating when they come back to their home land.  Wouldn’t we have to make sweaters for the bee birds when we bring them back?

Last question:
Is there a guarantee when using this option?
What are the claims?  I am never going to loose a hive, my loses will drop to 10% (one hive), or I will get more honey, but it will cost more.  Any other claims?
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BlueBee
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« Reply #84 on: January 29, 2011, 09:36:28 AM »

 beat a dead horse beat a dead horse beat a dead horse
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Finski
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« Reply #85 on: January 29, 2011, 10:53:20 AM »

Quote
Acebird, the options are:

•Heating the entire cavity
•Heating the cluster
•Not heating anything

Please explain the middle option, heat the cluster.
 Any other claims?



I returned yesterday home from a small surgery operation. I had a neighbour (70 y) who took five steps from his bed and he was hopelesly lost.

It took me 12 hours  to notice that when at night 3 a'clock he left his bed and asked me after 10 seconds, where are our beds, there or there. Nursers took him to bed again but in 30 seconds he jumped  up like a bow and was again lost.

That is really interesting life: to meet all the time new friends and new places! ...Options, options....



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« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 11:07:00 AM by Finski » Logged

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Finski
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« Reply #86 on: January 29, 2011, 11:08:41 AM »

He'll be back, he really loves us all, even those who argue grin

thomas

Depends how much you stand amusing. My surgery wound in my belly does not stand. It must be in rest 1 month.
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CapnChkn
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« Reply #87 on: January 30, 2011, 12:14:59 AM »

Finski, I don't mean to offend.  Twice I have made the statement that the bees aren't heating the inside of the hive, and you have posted directly afterwards telling me about the weather where I am currently living.  You see, I know what you mean by "It's cold here."  I have lived where the Indians are fascinated by ice (It burns!  It is not Hot!), and I have lived where the radio gives the weather report as, "The high today will be seven below."

Acebird, I am having trouble believing you are not familiar with the mechanics of Bee Winterizing.  It's been documented, since I don't know when, that the bees form a ball with the essential "organs" (The queen, and later the brood) of the super organism in the center.  Much like your body with all the vital organs in the core.  The bees then shiver their flight muscles to generate heat, the bees on the outside pushing into the center when chilled, the bees in the center moving out in order to keep in the "Goldilocks," to paraphrase, range.

It makes no difference where the bees are located.  The temperature needs to be the same for their survival regardless of the outside environment, and the only variable here is the number of calories burned to maintain this temperature range.

If the bees heated the inside of the cavity they build the nest in, they would choose or modify the volume of that cavity to get the best dynamics.  As it is, the cluster is at maximum size at the start of the cold season, all the bees working together to keep the inner temperature, while insulating from the outside environment with their bodies.  If the cavity needs to be kept at temperature, then the mechanism of heating by the mass of bees would drop over time as the old ones in the cluster died.

Now my original post (second in this thread) was that it was impractical for the bees to heat the inside cavity.  You responded the assumption was not practical.  I replied with an explanation of my original statement, and now I seem to be dragged into the middle of an argument about how best to keep bees from freezing.

The bees have been at this for hundreds of millions of years before you or any of the model's "10 hives" ever saw the smoke of a bee hunter's fire.  It is not necessary to keep them warm.  You seem focused on building a machine to keep bees, and the original post in this thread is about temperatures in the hive, and humidity.

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Finski
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« Reply #88 on: January 30, 2011, 01:07:30 AM »

Twice I have made the statement that the bees aren't heating the inside of the hive,

 You seem focused on building a machine to keep bees, and the original post in this thread is about temperatures in the hive, and humidity.




 You really think that I cannot read or understand the issue what is said in numerous researches.  

Why a human keeps clothes? To warm them or what? Why we need to discuss on that level?

You may bye a sleeping bag where insulation value is -40C. It means that you may sleep in arctic snow without fire. http://www.backcountry.com/55-to-30-degree-down-bags

SEcond thing is that I am interested in machines...... I arrange my hives for winter in September, feed  and I do not touch them untill in Marsh when I dig then out off snow fo cleansing flight. Our snow melts away in April. They eate sugar the whole winter from September to May. In May willows start to give food.

After 48 years I do not undertand nothing... HOw do you get 80 kg average honey yields if you do not understand nothing. P ractically I have not lost hives for starving since I start to use insulated hives.

FIrst I used American style single wall wooden Langstrot  boxes. The food consumption was 50% more than in insulated hives.




« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 02:17:38 AM by Finski » Logged

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Finski
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« Reply #89 on: January 30, 2011, 01:28:47 AM »

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Why Apis mellifera survives in cold


The basic reason how honeybee survive is when we compare it to other Apis-family bees.

The great invention of wintering with bee was that
*  it started to live in tree cavities.
* it drops down the core temperature of cluster from 36C to 23C

IN Japan there lives Apis cerana.
*It makes a hive in open place and only 20% lives inside the cavity.
* They keep 36C temp during winter.

Other Apis family bees live in jungles and they have one comb in open air.

Apis cerana really heaths its cluster without shelter and it cannot concure cold climates.

Now you see the meaning of the "box" where bees live.

In Australia bee may live in rabbit tunnels like Africanized bees in USA. But that happens in warm climate.


You need not use much google when you find good reseaches how bees really winter them selves.

I learned moisture thing 40 years ago. I had 6 one box hives. One had upper entrance open and 5 had not. I covered them snow like it was said in those days.

The hive which had the upper entrance open , was alive in spring and others 5 was shut, and they died.
so simple to learn...

From machine systems I learned that I may achieve 3 times quicker spring build up with pollen patty and electrict bottom heating compared to natural build up. It means that instead of one yield month I have now 2 months because big hives are ready to forage surplus earlier.  Yes, all beekeepers say me grazy but what then. I have read what ever insults for that.  

However I have learned more with my experiments than 99% beekeepers can ever think at 60 degree latitude.

But in summary: a beekeeper need not to be very wise. Bees take care themselves and fogare that nectar what is in flowers.

When you know little, you know all.





« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 02:18:47 AM by Finski » Logged

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Finski
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« Reply #90 on: January 30, 2011, 01:56:36 AM »

Natural hive places of Apis cerana in Osaka Japan

http://homepage3.nifty.com/jhb/english/sizensou.htm

(1994-2003.3) location   number
Gravestone..........   ..........   ...............   57
Garrets of temples and house..................      32
Space between natural rocks or bricks   .........15
Hollow of old woods......................      15
Open space under the eaves or branches of trees.   16
Under floor of houses or barns ........   16
In the small shrine   ........1
In the waste pipe   .........1
Core of coiled cable ..........   1
Footwear box ......   3
In the concrete fence ......   1
Log house -------   1
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
total ........   156


Osaka latitude 34 degree

same as Los Angeles and Carolina in USA and nearly Dallas

or as North Africa

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« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 02:07:07 AM by Finski » Logged

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CapnChkn
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« Reply #91 on: January 30, 2011, 02:13:07 AM »

Finski, if you read the post, you will see the second line from my post you quoted was not directed at you.
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Finski
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« Reply #92 on: January 30, 2011, 02:25:15 AM »

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How ordinary wasp survives in arctic regions

Wasp queen over winters as freezed. It may flye in cold rain like +4C, what I have seen its hunting.

In my country when day temp reaches +20C, a queen starts to make its paper nest.

It is a small paper covered ball. Larvae twist there and make their own heat.

I found that when I took a small wasp hive away. It was +5C outside and 10 larvae were warmer than my hand.

When wasps make a nest inside soil, they make there paper walls too to keep the hive temp optimal.


wasp "arctic sleeping bag"



Hot climate wasp species nest, paper combs but no cover

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S.M.N.Bee
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« Reply #93 on: January 30, 2011, 02:33:31 AM »


Hay Finski

Just want to say "Thank You". I'M rather new to bee keeping [first year] and also keep bees in a cold climate. [Minnesota] Your posts have been helpfull to those of us in cold climates.

Keep sharing your knowledge

John
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T Beek
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« Reply #94 on: January 30, 2011, 07:44:53 AM »

I think it may be helpful if members actually "read the threads/posts" they are responding to.

I also think this one has gone on a bit long and is getting scattered some, but that's me grin

thomas
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Acebird
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« Reply #95 on: January 30, 2011, 11:18:56 AM »

Quote
Acebird, I am having trouble believing you are not familiar with the mechanics of Bee Winterizing.

I am familiar with some mechanics and trying to understand the logic where there are differences.

Quote
Now my original post (second in this thread) was that it was impractical for the bees to heat the inside cavity. You responded the assumption was not practical. I replied with an explanation of my original statement, and now I seem to be dragged into the middle of an argument about how best to keep bees from freezing.

You mean this one reply #79?

Quote
Acebird, the options are:
 Heating the entire cavity
 Heating the cluster
 Not heating anything
Quote
Relax! You don't need to carry a "Chip on your shoulder." We aren't saying your beekeeping wisdom is questionable.

CapnChkn, I am not dragging you into anything.  I take nobodies word for anything that is why all the questions.  To me “heating the cluster” by man is quite different than heating the box they live in.  My assumption is when someone starts a topic “beehive temp” they are speaking of the manmade box not just the cluster.  I can’t see how you can practically heat the cluster unless you provide a heat source that they can get to and then they congregate around it.  Won’t this result in killing the hive because the cluster will never move?

Finski, as CapnChkn posted you tend to fly off the handle if someone questions you.  Then you post a barrage of clippings with much good information but it is hard to see the relevancy of your ranting.  If you can’t keep straight who is posting what it is hard to take you serious.  It is no doubt that you have a ton of knowledge about bees to offer us but what you are delivering is hard to decipher.

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Finski
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« Reply #96 on: January 30, 2011, 12:35:24 PM »


Finski, as CapnChkn posted you tend to fly off the handle if someone questions you.  


I have tried to avoid to say that questions are out of mind. One fool may ask more than 10 wise can answer.

 
Quote
It is no doubt that you have a ton of knowledge about bees to offer us but what you are delivering is hard to decipher.




Like you, you have used all your energy to try piss on me. You are not interested how things really are.  You will never succeed.

If you have lack of basic knowledge or you have your own fixed ideas, it is impossible to tell how things are.

I have just  believed that you have just teased me with your stupid claims. British guys like to play that game. They even play their stupid games with diseases and after that discussion is mere mesh.

As I have said many times, all my knowledge is written in American universities with your mother lanquage. Don't care about my accent.  Problem is that you invent yout own statement and do not bother to read the information.

Read and understand is different questions. You may read it in 10 minutes but it takes year or more to undertand the idea in practical level.

Then some one say that "cold does not kill but moisture kills". It is same as "horse does not kill but cars kill".  Of cousre cold kills, but not perhaps in Texas.

The British beekeeprs are same. They do not understand the insutlation and they invent all kind of expalantions which are not from this world. It is what I say to them.

Like that "first years insulator" said: insulation adds moisture. - It is just controwise.

Guyes, back to school  and make your home works.
Internet has 95% wrong information about bees. Mostly is it mere social mouth grinding.

*****

I must say that insulation and heat issues are difficult issues in adulta level.
When the first energy crissi was 1975, we started to insulate our houses, stop ventilation, save energy and what ever.

....And what happened:

*  people become seriously sick
* houses and workplaces got mould and part of people got huge allergy.
* many buildings  were closed and living and working was forbidden
* roof and walls let rain water come into the house

* condensation water ruined many parts in houses

House wall structure

- outer board cover against water
- ventilating air gap (insulation and water cover do not touch each other)
- wind protection layer
- insulation (soft, much air)
- moisture barrier (inside moisture does not go inside the wall.
- inner surface cover ( nice to look, paint and what ever)

- wooden skeleton to fix layers

http://www.finnfoam.fi/index.php?action-article-getImage&article-imageId=2514

Simple, but development has taken 30 years...and some never learn in their DIY


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« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 12:49:44 PM by Finski » Logged

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Acebird
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« Reply #97 on: January 30, 2011, 01:05:09 PM »

Quote
Like you, you have used all your energy to try piss on me.


So sorry you feel that way. Sad

Quote
You are not interested how things really are.  You will never succeed.

At what?  I am not sure you know what my goals are.  I think I will succeed.  Time will tell.
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CapnChkn
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« Reply #98 on: January 30, 2011, 01:48:00 PM »

Alrighty!  I understood that question!  I think the problem we're having is in the perspective.  The original post talked about the temperatures in the hive, not artificial heating.  Also, the term bee "Keeper" is related to "Gamekeeper."  There are no "Beeherds."

Because this isn't developing a domestic animal with predictable behavior, it's essential to get into the head of the bee.  The hive is not a convenience for the bee, but for the keeper.  When I say, "heat the cluster," I am looking at this from the perspective of the insect, not the mammal trying to get 'r done.

If I were to try to keep the bees through the winter using artificial means, it would be better to create an environment inside the hive that would take less effort to get through the hardest of times.  If you have several hives, setting them one next to another would give insulation on the touching walls.  A climate close to what would be common around 35 to 38 degrees latitude would be best, because the bees would become too active at higher temperatures before the flows started.

If left to themselves, selection would simply favor the bees that built larger clusters, collected enough stores, and swarmed less.  AHB is an example of all the characteristics not desirable in northern races, but works pretty well for tropical climes.  I don't need to heat my bees, they do just fine by themselves, but if I were, I fantasize about building a greenhouse with temperature controlled vents.  All entrances would lead outside, and the sides could be opened in warm weather.

I'm pretty sure Finski is hindered by his ability to communicate in English and is trying to get his message through, I'm not mad at him or you, I'm used to netiquette.  He's talking about his experience with heating hives in cold that is torturous to critters half an inch long, and is saying pretty much what I am in this post.  The fact he keeps "trash talking" tells me he's more of a curmudgeon than trying to show the world how to "do it right."
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Finski
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« Reply #99 on: January 30, 2011, 02:01:18 PM »

He's talking about his experience with heating hives in cold that is torturous to critters half an inch long, and is saying pretty much what I am in this post.  The fact he keeps "trash talking" tells me he's more of a curmudgeon than trying to show the world how to "do it right."

DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND THAT I DO NOT OVER WINTER MY BEES WITH ELECTRICT HEATING.
tHEY ARE JUST IN INSULATED BOXES AND EATE SUGAR AND MAKE THEIR OWN HEAT WHAT THEY NEED.



You have in Tennesee now +15C - +17 C day temp. It is not winter. Just cool summer weather to me.
3 days ago I had here -28C

We have here that temperature in the middle of May - I hope!

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