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Author Topic: beehive temp  (Read 17104 times)
Acebird
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« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2011, 08:26:41 AM »

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today mid afternoon temp 35deg F, inside hive temp 46deg. eight hours later the outside temp has dropped to 24deg, inside hive temp has risen to 51 deg. WHAT IS WITH THIS? outside temp drops, shouldn't the temp in the hive? why are the bees raising the temperature?


What type of sensor are you using and where is it placed in reference to the bees?  I suppose this experiment is tickling your fancy but if you can't see what is happening inside the hive the data is not very useful.

What you need is a trocar camera with a temperature probe on the end where the lens is.  You have to be able to steer the lens where you want it to go through the hive and take temps at many locations.  Then the analysis will be much easier and probably make more sense.  BTW the system I speak of runs from 10K-30K (dollars).
Another system that can be used is an infrared camera that is calibrated to the color gradient.  these systems are also quite pricey.
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Finski
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« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2011, 09:17:05 AM »

..

It seems to be true   that new information adds pain
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BlueBee
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« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2011, 12:20:59 PM »

AceBird, I think the best system for checking Ron's bees is probably Ron’s eyes grin
 
Knowing it is warmer in the hive than outside is always a good thing.  Heat (energy) is neither created nor destroyed, it just changes form…..as I know you are aware from reading your various posts (COE).  If there’s excess heat coming from a hive, something is changing the chemical energy in the honey into heat.   Usually (hopefully) that is the bees.

An interesting calculation for you though would be to compute the amount of watts the bees are generating.  That is doable since we know the inside temp, the outside temp, and the R value between them.  Once you know the wattage your bees are generating, you know the amount of stores they are consuming…since….again….energy is never created nor destroyed, it just changes forms (in this case from honey stores into heat).  If you find your bees are only generating a low amount of watts in a foam hive, you know by the laws of Physics they are not eating much honey.  Finski will confirm this from his experience too  Wink
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Acebird
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« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2011, 01:45:16 PM »

http://www.unit-conversion.info/power.html


1 tsp (honey)= 64 cal

1 tsp = 1/16 cup  16x4 = 64 tsp= 1quart = 4096 cal per qt.

4096 cal /sec should yield 17.149 kW

I don’t know if this helps you but keep in mind that the temperature in the hive is not uniform.  It is warmest in the center of the cluster and almost equal to ambient outside the cluster.  Most of the insulating is done by the bees themselves.  That is why I said he has to know where the temperature probe is in relation to the bees.  As the bees move around that temp reading will be all over the place.

What concerns me about a plastic hive is that moisture will not pass through it as well as wood.  That includes a wood hive lined with Styrofoam insulation.
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« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2011, 02:47:29 PM »

AceBird, isn’t 17 KW-hours the energy content in the Chevy Volt battery?  Should we start running our cars off honey?  I don’t think the bees are making 17 KW  grin 

In Ron’s foam hive, it’s probably more like 5 to 7 watts (energy content of about half frame of honey a month)

The beauty of measuring the energy output of a system is you can measure it over any spherical area (or surface geometry of your choice).  The exact location of the heat source (cluster) in the spherical area is immaterial, if you know the temperature on the inside surface of the sphere, outside surface of the sphere, and the R value going thru the sphere.  Spear = Foam hive here.  [I am making a few assumptions in that statement, which I know you are aware of; like assuming a constant gradient of heat flow thru the surface at all points.  This to make the calculations a bit simpler].

The point is, with Ron’s crude numbers and assuming a relatively even mixing of heat ON the inside surface of the foam hive, you can do the calculation without regards to the point sources of the heat in the hive (heater bees in this case).

The temperature in a foam hive, and to a much lesser extent in a wood hive, IS warmer than the outside air or you would be violating the Conservation of Energy.  Foam traps more bee heat inside though.  They are warmer.

I agree with you that moisture is not going to diffuse thru foam!  That is why we have top vents!  The air with the most moisture (highest dew point) goes out the top vent and the hive stays warm and dry.

I think Finski summed it up best when talking about his foam hives:   “My bees like warm and they have not moisture proplems.” 

BlueBee, couldn’t have said it any better!
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Acebird
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« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2011, 03:29:15 PM »

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if you know the temperature on the inside surface of the sphere, outside surface of the sphere,

Is he getting an accurate reading here?  I don't think so.  The hive is not a sphere so the temperatures in the corners will be different if even if the cluster is dead center (heat source).

If I didn't screw up a decimal point it is the amount of heat in a quart of honey.  So if you have the hive on a scale and measure the weight loss of the hive (not totally accurate because of bee losses) you will have an approximation of calories consumed.
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hardwood
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« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2011, 03:58:51 PM »

By the time ya'll figure this out all the way it'll be summer (maybe fall) again and we'll have moved on to talking about heat gain instead of heat loss grin

Scott
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« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2011, 04:04:10 PM »

Scott, you are sooooo right! 

AceBird, we better start our calculations for summer heat gains now  grin
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Acebird
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« Reply #48 on: January 26, 2011, 06:06:04 PM »

We just lift the cover in the summer.  It is not nearly as critical because there is no danger taking a look inside.  Well, maybe a bee sting or two.
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stonecroppefarm
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« Reply #49 on: January 26, 2011, 11:28:11 PM »


FRAMEshift, I think your comment about insulating the top is important, the insulation keeps the cold outside temps from cooling the inner surface of the top where condensation would otherwise occur, sort of like condensation on the inside of a single pane window versus no condensation on an insulated double or triple pane window.

Acebird, I am using an inexpensive old radio shack temp/humidity sensor with radio transmitter to receiver in house. funny you should mention it, I just ordered two topcar cameras or whatever they are called (just kidding). Also, I built and placed a 2" shim on top of the deep hive body, this I plan to use for feeding purposes, I placed a small piece 1lb of fondant there, and this is where the temp sensor is.

two interesting observations, for a new beek anyway, today with temps in low 30s I decided to check the bees with minimal disruption of the colony, so I thought. I wanted to lift the inner cover and check to see if the bees had found the fondant I had placed in their dining area. Well what I found when I removed the outer telescoping cover was a shitload of bees pushing through the large vent hole in the inner cover. I didn't dare remove the inner cover to check the fondant, just closed up the hive. what do you think motivated the bees to congregate at the top of the frames? are they there for feeding purposes? this could pose a problem for a new beek like me. I don't know if I can remove the inner cover to place fondant on top of the frames without having a few thousand bees in flight?


the second observation -- late this evening with the wind howling I was out and went to check the weight on top of the hive. I just barely touched the weight, intentionally to test my hypothesis that whenever I am anywhere near the hive, the temp in the hive goes up. when I went into the house, as anticipated I watched the temp in the hive go from 49deg F to over 53deg like in less than 5min, along with that the %humidity increased as well. my conjecture is that anything that disrupts the hive cause bee commotion that results in an increase in metabolism, the consumption of food and the production of H2O. Sound plausable?
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BlueBee
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« Reply #50 on: January 26, 2011, 11:46:26 PM »

Ron, they’re doing a happy dance  grin 

Great news to finally get confirmation they’re alive, they're alive!

I’ve been to Newport and Providence before but didn’t recognize your little town.  I looked it up on Google last night.  I think we’ll ALL want to come out and inspect your bees this SUMMER.  Great location, you lucky dog!
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« Reply #51 on: January 27, 2011, 12:16:51 AM »



These measurement would be usefull.  what is the meaning of solid bottom and mesh bottom. What is the temp of bof in periferia. Then with slight  wind and no wind.
Wind you make with ventilator. 

I tried mesh bottom in 6 hives, 3 one box and 3 two boxes.
One 1-bos hive starved dead and others two was nearby. In 2-box  hives 8 did not notice any special.
So in mesh floor food consumption was almost 100% bigger.

One thing is my practice. If i have 3 frame nuc and i add 3w heater nera cluster, how much the heater changes hive temperature?

Then i add 6 W heater, what is temp gradient inside the hive.

6 W may be good if out temp is -20C but near 0C it disperse the cluster.
.

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Acebird
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« Reply #52 on: January 27, 2011, 08:53:33 AM »

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Well what I found when I removed the outer telescoping cover was a shitload of bees pushing through the large vent hole in the inner cover.

Holy Cow!  Yesterday we had a warm spell 35F and saw no evidence of bee flights around the hive so we dared to pop the cover.  Exactly as you said bees all around the handle hole of the inner cover.  Also there were many dead bees nearer to the outside edges of the inner cover.  The honey patty was almost gone so I made another and for the heck of it I threw in a rotton banana.

Quote
I built and placed a 2" shim on top of the deep hive body, this I plan to use for feeding purposes, I placed a small piece 1lb of fondant there, and this is where the temp sensor is.

OK so you have picked the warmest place outside of the cluster but inside the hive to take readings.  There is little you can do for thermal loss calculations because like I said there would be quite different readings in the sidewalls of the hive compared to the top.  I still believe that these quick fluctuations are cause by groups of bees coming close to your probe and not and overall air temp for the top of the hive.  The only way you can prove that is to have multiple probes taking readings simultaneously.

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Acebird
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« Reply #53 on: January 27, 2011, 04:13:49 PM »

Check this out.  Three quarters down the page.

http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,31270.0.html

Posted by Trot:

Quote
Another falsehood I read/hear about, far too often. About loosing all that heat through the upper entrance?
I don't know how to write it down, that people will comprehend?
Bees don't heat the hive! Air around the cluster, even the surface of the cluster is just as cold as it is outside. In our parts, the inside the hive is often colder than outside. Inside the hive, it takes up to two days, often much longer, for the temperature to equalise, for the hive to became as warm or cold as the outside. Small change in weather and/or temperature are thus for bees less noticeable, if at all?
Bees only heat its own cluster, in the Winter
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T Beek
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« Reply #54 on: January 28, 2011, 08:10:36 AM »

That's it in a nutshell, bees don't heat their hive, they heat their cluster. 

Trot would/should know and I concur.  Thanks for the re-post.

thomas
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Finski
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« Reply #55 on: January 28, 2011, 09:18:58 AM »

That's it in a nutshell, bees don't heat their hive, they heat their cluster.  



You old fart " Human does not heat their home. They heat their oven"


3 the most stupid logans I have never heard

1) Cold does not kill bees but moisture does  ..................ash angry

2) "bees don't heat their hive, they heat their cluster"

3) I put insulation onto north wall because cold comes from north


I do not remember how many years I have explained the meaning of heat and insulation in this forum, but it has no meaning.

In Alaska many beeks prefer to kill the hives on purpose when they follow  those idiot slogans

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Finski
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« Reply #56 on: January 28, 2011, 09:38:58 AM »

.
Igloo snow as insulator

Wiki:
Although igloos are usually associated with all Inuit, they were predominantly constructed by people of Canada's Central Arctic and Greenland's Thule area. Other Inuit people tended to use snow to insulate their houses, which were constructed from whalebone and hides. Snow is used because the air pockets trapped in it make it an insulator. On the outside, temperatures may be as low as −45 °C (−49 °F), but on the inside the temperature may range from −7 °C (19 °F) to 16 °C (61 °F) when warmed by body heat alone.[4]

The Central Inuit, especially those around the Davis Strait, lined the living area with skin, which could increase the temperature within from around 2 °C (36 °F) to 10–20 °C (50–68 °F).

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Course Bee
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« Reply #57 on: January 28, 2011, 10:00:51 AM »

Very interesting Finski. Who would have thought I would be learning this much about snows insulation properties on the bee forum. My wife would be impressed!

Tim
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Tim
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« Reply #58 on: January 28, 2011, 10:33:34 AM »

Here we go again, comparing bees and humans rolleyes

thomas
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Finski
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« Reply #59 on: January 28, 2011, 10:37:25 AM »

Here we go again, comparing bees and humans rolleyes

thomas

Think about your home how you stay alive there in winter?

If you have cold, what do you do? - you shiver your self so much that the whole house is soon warm!

( wife takes care the rest : TWIST MORE KILO WATS)
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