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Author Topic: and here go the jerking knees!!!!  (Read 6523 times)
FRAMEshift
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« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2011, 08:52:28 PM »

I hate to tell ya frame shift,but I see a lot of those that can least afford it being the first ones in line for smokes at the stores.And you can not prove one life has been saved by the increase in the cigarette tax.I am a non smoker and don't care for it myself so it does not make my life shorter or longer either way.

I'm sure you are right that the poor people smoke more than the rest of the population.  But I do think that many young people never started smoking because they could not afford it.  So I do think that many lives have been saved.
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And not one extra btu of energy has been produced from gasoline taxes.

The cheapest source of energy is conservation.  Oil freed up by improvements in car efficiency works out to about $2 per barrel.  The new term for energy produced by conservation is "negabarrels".  http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/environment/4254875
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Would you be willing to legislate that those receiving public funds be forced to stop smoking and take mandatory drug tests? Surely this would be a big help in moving from the poor "class" to the middle "class".

I would agree that public money should not be spent on smoking.  I don't think that food stamps will pay for cigarettes.  But you can't force people to stop something that is legal.  Yes I would support drug tests for for welfare recipients.

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And I do see a lot of the poor that are always going to be that way by personal choices that they make.
I have seen with my own eyes many of these poor when given work that will not show up on time,or many times will not show up for a second day of work. I've even seen some leave at lunch time and not return. This is what makes me wary of what a lot of people perceive as poor.

Yes and the problem is hereditary.  Maybe some of these folks can't be helped but their children can.
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Bee Happy
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« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2011, 09:07:55 PM »

I hate to tell ya frame shift,but I see a lot of those that can least afford it being the first ones in line for smokes at the stores.And you can not prove one life has been saved by the increase in the cigarette tax.I am a non smoker and don't care for it myself so it does not make my life shorter or longer either way.
I'm sure you are right that the poor people smoke more than the rest of the population.  But I do think that many young people never started smoking because they could not afford it.  So I do think that many lives have been saved.


Actually, it's the inverse - kids take up smoking expensive cigarettes because they've been raised to "luxury item" status - the increased price has no effect on smoker startups. (I've seen the study summaries; I honestly can't cite them to you myself,  but they're out there.)

Gasoline taxes punish the poor as well - I've posted this before but it's simple logic: Poor people can't afford the newest best milage getting cars - the poorest are stuck with used models of the absolute worst milage cars - they have to use more gasoline to get their less efficient car to go a similar distance as anyone else to earn less money than most of everyone else; but it feels good to tax gas to make people who can - choose a more efficient car, while the poor schmuck who can't afford the price increases gets jabbed again.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2011, 09:45:39 PM »

People will avoid doing things or reporting income that will cause them to be ineligible for government hand outs.

And yes, food stamps do buy smokes. Perhaps not directly.... some times depending on who is at the cash register... but they sell the food stamps to others to get money for their habits.

Go figure  Undecided
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kathyp
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« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2011, 09:49:44 PM »

it's not just cars.  it's the cost of everything.  how much of our stuff is transported by train and truck?  

after the guys idiotic comment that higher prices had not hurt Europe and had  modified their behavior, i called my sister to see if she thought that was true.  they are up to about 10 dollars (equivalent) in england.  she asked my what i was smoking  grin  the cost of everything has gone up.  the availability of some things, especially fresh foods, has gone down.  people still drive, they just spend less on other things.  this hurts the overall economy and disproportionately impacts the poor.  
i asked about mass transit.  the cost of that has gone up also.  it is cheaper for her to drive with her husband to work, than for each  to buy a bus pass.  

she wanted to know if we were not watching the news and seeing what was happening in Europe?  i guess some of us are not.

keep in mind also, that each country in Europe is about the size of one of our smallish states.  
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
kathyp
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« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2011, 09:51:25 PM »

in Oregon they don't get food stamps.  they get a debit card and they can stick it in a cash  machine and get cash.  this is because we don't want to stigmatize being on welfare.  go figure.....  Cry
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
FRAMEshift
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« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2011, 11:27:20 PM »


i asked about mass transit.  the cost of that has gone up also.  it is cheaper for her to drive with her husband to work, than for each  to buy a bus pass.  

Well carpooling is better than the one person per car that we have in the US.  But Chapel Hill and Carrboro have free bus service and the buses are packed.  It greatly reduces downtown congestion and brings people into the business district to work and shop.  Stimulates business at a minimum energy cost.  And many people can live there without even owning a car.

This is a new vision for small town urban.  I think it was driven by the urban planning folks at UNC.  Carrboro has only 18000 people but it has the highest population density in North Carolina.  People can ride the bus or walk just about anywhere they want to go.
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kathyp
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« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2011, 11:33:18 PM »

they happen to work for the same company.  

mass transit is not free.  someone pays for it.   mostly people who get no benefit from it.  it's also only good for people who want to be crammed in on each other.  you want to live in a "village", go for it.  

you are not addressing the point.   Wink
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
FRAMEshift
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« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2011, 09:02:50 AM »

mass transit is not free.  someone pays for it.   mostly people who get no benefit from it.  it's also only good for people who want to be crammed in on each other.  you want to live in a "village", go for it.  

you are not addressing the point.   Wink
I am addressing the real point.   "mostly people who get no benefit from it" is a statement of class warfare.  You are worried that you are paying for benefits for people who have less than you.   And all the while, the people who really have money are using tax lawyers to avoid paying their share of taxes.  If we can't do mass transit, we are not going to get free of imported oil.... until it runs out.

And yes, I do find the village pleasant and I like riding the bus.  When I lived in Birmingham the buses were very unpleasant.  Crammed and dirty.  The were used to carry maids from the slums to the rich suburbs.  When I lived in Sweden, the buses were great.  They run frequently and on time.  They are clean and everyone rides.   Now Chapel Hill/Carrboro buses are the same.  Very nice electric hybrid buses that run every 15 minutes during the day and every hour until midnight.  Of course it costs money.  It's a public investment in the livability of the town.  It uses less energy and is more cost effective than cars for the community as a whole.  But I think "community" is not a word you like.  And that is the real point.
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kathyp
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« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2011, 10:17:25 AM »

someday i'd like to see if some shrink could do an analysis on why libs like to clump together in cities.  i have  my own theories.

it is not class warfare to not want to pay for something that can not support itself (mass transit), and is hugely expensive.  if you want mass transit, then it needs to pay for itself and not require that tax payers constantly cough up to subsidize it. 

you guys really need to prioritize.  seems to me that there is nothing you don't want the government to pay for.  where, exactly, do you think the money will come from?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
FRAMEshift
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« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2011, 10:55:18 AM »

someday i'd like to see if some shrink could do an analysis on why libs like to clump together in cities.  i have  my own theories.

I live on a 21 acre farm with another 20 acres next door that belongs to my brother in law and 300 acres behind mine that is old forest.  I'm 2 miles from a town of 3000 and 20 miles from a city.  I don't currently feel particularly "clumped".  But I do like the small (and very dense) town of Carrboro.  It is intellectually stimulating with so many different types of people to talk to.  And the restaurants are world class.  grin  What are your theories, if I dare ask?

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it is not class warfare to not want to pay for something that can not support itself (mass transit), and is hugely expensive.  if you want mass transit, then it needs to pay for itself and not require that tax payers constantly cough up to subsidize it. 
This is why China is kicking our butts.  We have lost the will to create on a large scale and over a long time period.  If cars were banned from roads, mass transit would be able to pay for itself instantly.  So it's competition from inefficient (but also government supported)  roads that makes mass transit an economic sink.  But over time the roads clog and the urban sprawl creates sterile cookie cutter burbs not fit for human consumption.  If you are going to calculate the payback for mass transit, you have to include the avoided costs of the roads and parking lots that did not have to be built.  America was built on cheap oil that is gone forever.  So we have to adjust our transportation models to reflect that hard reality.  And the solutions are on a scale that private enterprise alone can't get a handle on.

What would life be like in the US now if Interstate Highways had never been built?  But they could never have been built by a private business. The same is true of mass transit.  China already has a national network of highspeed rail that puts us to shame.

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you guys really need to prioritize.  seems to me that there is nothing you don't want the government to pay for.  where, exactly, do you think the money will come from?
I think the money will come from raising taxes on those making more than $250k.  And from NOT fighting wars constantly.  And from removing insurance companies (which don't provide any health care but only skim money between you and your doctor.)  from the health care system. And from oil company subsidies. 

My priorities are sustainable energy, health care, and education.  But you are correct that there must be priorities and we can't do everything at once. 
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Vibe
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« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2011, 11:08:28 AM »

It's not that Libs clump together in large metro areas voluntarily...It's that the over crowding of those areas exacerbates the mental instability that leads one to be come a Liberal. So more people in those areas are affected than in the more wide open spaces...Of course, sometimes those same instabilities are found in remote locations...Just not as often. grin

  And from removing insurance companies (which don't provide any health care but only skim money between you and your doctor.)  from the health care system.
Yep. Better that the Gov. do the skimming.
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kathyp
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« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2011, 12:11:44 PM »

if china is going to be our model we just need to get a nice communist in office to take over and force change......oh....wait......

why do libs clump in cities...probably a lot of reasons.  it gives them a false sense of security.  they have a sense of organization, convenience, and a belief that the community will bind together in emergency.  they also have a need to feel that someone is there for them. government services.  they confuse communal with community.

i am witness to the fact that in a disaster cities fall apart quickly.  social order breaks down and everyone sits around waiting for "someone to do something".  liberals do not believe that the individual is capable of great things absent government help.  that's kind of sad. 



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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
FRAMEshift
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« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2011, 12:55:24 PM »

if china is going to be our model we just need to get a nice communist in office to take over and force change......oh....wait......
The Chinese are not communists anymore... because it didn't work.  They are pragmatists who have combined the macro planning and large scale scope of government with the efficiency of free markets to make the micro decisions.  
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why do libs clump in cities...probably a lot of reasons.  it gives them a false sense of security.  they have a sense of organization, convenience, and a belief that the community will bind together in emergency.  they also have a need to feel that someone is there for them. government services.  they confuse communal with community.

The big change in the bee world is urban beekeeping, particularly among women.  They do band together with small scale urban farmers, locavore consumers, and environmentalists.  Community does involve an element of communalism.  Not in the sense of forced sharing of all resources but in cooperation and the efficiencies of scale obtained by working in common.
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i am witness to the fact that in a disaster cities fall apart quickly.  social order breaks down and everyone sits around waiting for "someone to do something".  liberals do not believe that the individual is capable of great things absent government help.  that's kind of sad.  
Have you really been around when urban chaos broke loose?  If so, I can understand some of your concerns.  I am aware of the possibilities of societal collapse and I am prepared for that as well as I can be.  But I don't think it would stop at the city limits.  
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« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2011, 01:09:51 PM »

If cars were banned from roads, mass transit would be able to pay for itself instantly.

That would be awesome!

Tourism would cease to exist, except for the very wealthy.  People would flock to the cities because they couldn't afford transportation.  And jobs in the cities would be hard to get because of the increase in people, creating unemployment and slums.  Crimes would skyrocket.  The middle class would cease to exist, enabling only a select few to enjoy life.

Ahh...the liberal utopia!

China may have a great light rail system, and have made great achievements, but those achievement have been accomplished using up human capital, not the money kind.  Using up, as in blood, sweat, and tear, thanks now go die.  

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Rick
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« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2011, 01:11:51 PM »

if china is going to be our model we just need to get a nice communist in office to take over and force change......oh....wait......
The Chinese are not communists anymore... because it didn't work.  They are pragmatists who have combined the macro planning and large scale scope of government with the efficiency of free markets to make the micro decisions.  
Like who can have children, and how many.

Now Kathyp
I don't think the current inhabitant is a communist...National Socialist maybe..
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2011, 01:32:41 PM »

Who is it that has the child labor, sweat shops, under paid workers, all those bad things I keep hearing about in the work environment? I thought it was China. Guess I was wrong.
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« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2011, 07:06:00 PM »

If the labor unions somehow invade China with the demands that have been placed on American companies and the Chinese are held to the same enviromental standards we are held to in the US then we will see how competitive they really are.
Maybe if US manufacturers were able to use lead based paint on childrens toys they could be more competitive.China is not a utopian work force.
 Let us not forget Tiananmen square incident.
China is certainly not a government of the people.
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #37 on: January 27, 2011, 10:36:29 AM »

Nothing I said was meant to excuse China's human rights (including labor rights) record or their environmental policies.  I'm saying China's combination of government planning at the large scale with free markets at the micoreconomic level actually works.  They are building a middle class at the same time ours is disappearing.  It is China that is "doing big things".  Not us.

Where you may have a point is in the fact that China is non-democratic.  In a democratic society, will people ever take the long view?  Voters in the US have jumped from right wing to left wing and back again in a period of two years.  There is no consensus in the US on any issue except that people want prosperity.  There is no agreement in how to get there.  So China is an existential threat to our democracy.  If the US slips to second tier status, political stability comes into question.
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kathyp
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« Reply #38 on: January 27, 2011, 10:57:32 AM »

funny thing about china...they are using lots of oil and many tons of coal to fuel their economic boom.  we, on the other hand......

let me see if i understand this.  rather than individual innovation and effort, we need some central planning run by the govt, so that we can compete with china?  what do we do about all those little things that make us non-competitive?  high labor costs, regulations, etc.?  seems to me that planning would only be a small part of your equation?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2011, 11:03:30 AM »

  Voters in the US have jumped from right wing to left wing and back again in a period of two years. 
Dang....I must have missed that presumably brief period where we shifted past center. This country has been so far to the left for decades...JFK would have been considered as too far Right for at least the last 20 years.
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