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Author Topic: and here go the jerking knees!!!!  (Read 6140 times)
kathyp
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« on: January 10, 2011, 11:26:27 AM »

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/136895-dem-planning-bill-that-would-outlaw-threatening-lawmakers

the first response of any  lib is to start clamping down on rights.  theses are the same people who screamed bloody murder that their library records might be looked at.  guess it's just fine to preserve "liberty" and let terrorist be free, but if someone says something bad, we'd better get right on controlling speech....and guns.

remember this plastered all over every libs post?

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

wouldn't essential liberties be those listed in our constitution?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2011, 02:29:05 PM »

Just great. Guess I will have to go all Jared Loughner  on their ***


Now I'm going to get a visit aren't I?  Undecided
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« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2011, 02:51:48 PM »

Just great. Guess I will have to go all Jared Loughner  on their ***


Now I'm going to get a visit aren't I?  Undecided

Join the group.

I just know that cable guy who seemingly is up on that pole every other day, is the government listening in and spying.  grin

I'm sure I have been reg flagged many times over.......  rolleyes
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« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2011, 11:52:09 PM »

Now I'm going to get a visit aren't I?

Ver vatching du und ver no vere du lib.  Bee werry werry carepul.
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« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2011, 02:42:48 AM »

... Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase ...Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety... wouldn't essential liberties be those listed in our constitution?

No, the President said in a radio interview in Chicago that the rights listed in the constitution was a list of "'negatives".  Don't try to confuse him he is trying as hard as he can.
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kathyp
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« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2011, 11:24:14 AM »

well, he wasn't entirely wrong.  if you are looking at it from the government point of view, much of the constitution lists restrictions on the government.  i would guess that would upset him some.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2011, 03:14:17 PM »

well, I tried to email my congressman and ask him - rhetorically - when he and the rest of the conservatives are told how to conduct their discourse by people who would sincerely love a 100% majority in office followed by the dispensation of freedoms at their pleasure - why do they think it's a good idea to listen? - I believe my congressman ran as a tea partier as well.  My zip plus 4 authentication "failed" (even though I looked it up).

EDIT: - turns out I had to do some magnifying to see which district I'm in.
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kathyp
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« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2011, 04:15:37 PM »

the tea party movement has been great for education in a lot of ways.  one of the best things to come out of it (besides hopefully electing more conservative people) is that the general public has been smacked in the face with the hypocrisy of the left.  no longer do you have to go onto the daily kos to be insulted and denigrated.  you only have to attend, or even publicly agree with, a tea party event. 

a guy i was working with  yesterday was expounding on the benefits of higher oil prices.  he was quite pleased that higher prices would cause people to change their driving practices.  he's not wrong about that. 
when i pointed out to him that the higher prices would also translate into inflation of all other prices, including food, clothing, etc. his response was that "it didn't hurt Europe".  apparently he's never been to Europe.
when i pointed out that it would hurt people, his response was "it won't hurt me.  i'm retired from two companies and draw social security".
apparently modifying personal behavior is a higher goal than putting food on the table?  so much for the compassionate left.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2011, 02:54:27 PM »

the tea party movement has been great for education in a lot of ways.  
Well Kathy since we are going to talk about education, I find your sig line a bit ironic.

And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever.
Thomas Jefferson


You do know that TJ was an atheist don't you?  He certainly used God when it was convenient, but his belief in "Nature's God" was as clear a statement of dialectical materialism as was possible in colonial America.   grin
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« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2011, 03:01:27 PM »

  he was quite pleased that higher prices would cause people to change their driving practices.  he's not wrong about that. 
when i pointed out to him that the higher prices would also translate into inflation of all other prices, including food, clothing, etc. his response was that "it didn't hurt Europe". 
Yes, higher oil prices raise the price of most other goods.  But the price of oil goes up more than the price of those other items, so relative to the rest of the economy, oil and gas prices rise.  That reduces consumption and allows adoption of other energy technologies that were precluded by the low price of oil.  All addictions are tough to break.  You can't do it without pain.  But the pain will be less if we do it by gradually raising the price of oil.  The alternative is to keep living in a fool's paradise until the oil runs out... and then the pain will be unbearable.
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kathyp
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« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2011, 03:39:18 PM »

you need to read TJ in depth.  he was not an atheist.  i know atheists wish he was....

he did ponder the Deity of Christ, but he firmly believed, and often spoke of, God.  he was also quite the scholar and he wrote massive amounts of stuff.  you will find, if you study his writings, that he tore up and examined just about every subject.  he's probably one of our most fascinating founders, and one of the lest understood and most misrepresented.

i have a suggestion on the addiction thing.  lets cut things like heating subsidies to the poor.  if my neighbors house is any example, the subsidies are enabling very bad behavior.  since i have to pay for my own stuff, i don't need the govt to adjust my behavior.  those who don't pay for their own stuff have no motivation to conform.

let the pain begin and let it begin with the welfare class.  either way, the poor get hurt.  why not just be honest and say that libs really don't care about that.  the end justifies the pain.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2011, 05:04:13 PM »

you need to read TJ in depth.  he was not an atheist.  i know atheists wish he was....
Well, I graduated from UVA where I attended meetings of the Jefferson Society. I visited Monticello several times a year while I was there.  Talked to lots of the historians there.  I've read the Dumas Malone 6 volume biography of Jefferson.  I've talked to the "people of the past" character actor at Colonial Williamsburg who has built his entire career around understanding the nuances of Jefferson's public positions.  That was entertaining.  
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he did ponder the Deity of Christ, but he firmly believed, and often spoke of, God.
TJ dodged and weaved but never would admit that he did or didn't believe in the divinity of Christ.  So he was certainly NOT a Christian.  Yes he frequently spoke of God when it was convenient to his argument, as in the case of your sig line.   grin  But when discussing the nature of God, he always used the term "Nature and Nature's God"  which Malone concluded was basically a way of referring to the power of Nature... which he wrote with a capital N.  Jefferson's position was equivalent to saying that he had reverence for the natural world.  He never explicitly stated any belief in the God of the Bible.... so just what god do you think he believed in?
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  he's probably one of our most fascinating founders, and one of the lest understood and most misrepresented.

We certainly agree on that. shocked
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i have a suggestion on the addiction thing.  lets cut things like heating subsidies to the poor.  if my neighbors house is any example, the subsidies are enabling very bad behavior.  since i have to pay for my own stuff, i don't need the govt to adjust my behavior.  those who don't pay for their own stuff have no motivation to conform.

let the pain begin and let it begin with the welfare class.  either way, the poor get hurt.  why not just be honest and say that libs really don't care about that.  the end justifies the pain.

The best political move the Republicans ever made was to make the middle class and lower middle class afraid of the poor.  And it's all to the advantage of their real constituents.... the filthy rich.   We have the biggest gap between rich and poor in our history.  The middle class is in decline as the rich get richer.  We are not a poor country.  It's just that the wealth of the country is concentrated in fewer and fewer hands.  Democrats are not going to ask you to pay for the welfare class.  That dubious honor belongs to those who have benefited the most from our rigged economy.
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kathyp
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« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2011, 06:03:24 PM »

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The best political move the Republicans ever made was to make the middle class and lower middle class afraid of the poor.  And it's all to the advantage of their real constituents.... the filthy rich.   We have the biggest gap between rich and poor in our history.  The middle class is in decline as the rich get richer.  We are not a poor country.  It's just that the wealth of the country is concentrated in fewer and fewer hands.  Democrats are not going to ask you to pay for the welfare class.  That dubious honor belongs to those who have benefited the most from our rigged economy.

not afraid of the  poor.  used to be one  grin  however, if you are going to insist that higher prices are required to make me modify my behavior, then the same should hold true of the person who gets heating assistance and keeps the house like a sauna.  or...don't the welfare class need to modify their behavior?  only the middle class? because we are the ones who will feel the price rise.

class warfare is the purview of the left. go read any leftist writings and they are full of it, from Marx through today.  the only real difference is that they have substituted "big corporation" for bourgeois.
 if the gap is bigger, so what?  because one person is rich, they have not made another person poor.  are there more people in real poverty?  no.  what the left has done is raise the poverty level cut off so that they can say there are more people in poverty.  having seen real poverty, i can tell you that cable tv watched on a big screen, lots of free stuff, and a nice gaming system do not = poverty. 

you make the typical argument that there is cause and effect between wealth and poverty.  there is not.  at least not in this country.  in socialist country's this might be true.  socialism can not abide a true middle class.  it is the ruling class and everyone else.  the farther left a country goes, the more the middle class is reduced.  of course, it's all in the name of "fairness". 

so what was TJ saying?  he expected a big storm or something from his nature god?  go pull his actual writings and i think you will find that he did believe in a supreme god.  no interpretation would be a good as your own.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2011, 06:31:20 PM »

You can honestly say when the Clinton administration pushed through the extreme taxes on tobacco,that it was the largest tax increase the poor had seen in quite some time. And one the libs didn't have enough gall to give earned smoking credits for.
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« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2011, 06:53:54 PM »

People who used to be poor are usually the biggest proponents of class warfare against the poor.... because their own class was so hard won and they know how bad it is to be poor.  If you think the poor have it so great, why not quit working and go on the dole?  I don't think they have it good and most of them would love to have a job that paid a decent wage.

 In 1955, in an era of rapid growth of the US economy, the maximum marginal tax rate was 85%.  In the 1970s it was still 50%.  Now it's 38% and the rich whine about high taxes?   rolleyes   There most certainly is a relationship between concentration of wealth at the top and the decline of the middle class.  If the rich paid taxes in proportion to the benefit they have received from society, there would be money to build infrastructure, fund education, and provide universal health care.  All of those things promote jobs and the ability of the middle class to earn a good living.

Of course people who get heating subsidies should be required to be energy efficient.  The energy tax credit was a great idea.  I replaced my HVAC system and 20% of the cost was covered by the credit.  I now use much less energy than before.  But people without an income can't use the tax credit.  There are lot's of programs to provide insulation and weatherizing for the poor, but many of them don't know how to take advantage of it.  Maybe you could put your neighbors in touch with a weatherization program and talk to them about conservation?  Just a thought.

Kathy, the real problem is that the free market does not plan long term and does not work for the good of the whole.  Each company is maximizing it's own short term profit.  That's why we got the BP spill and the banking collapse.  Only the government is in a position to plan long term and regulate the greed of .... yes.... big corporations.  

An increase in the gas tax is the least market-distorting way to move the energy markets off the oil addiction.  Nobody has to micromanage how we move to alternatives.  The market can work out the details.  But they have to have the incentive of ever rising costs of fossil fuels.  (And there is not really a free market in oil because the Saudis carefully manage the supply and price to keep us addicted..... cutting prices every time there is a move to energy efficient cars.
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« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2011, 06:59:22 PM »

You can honestly say when the Clinton administration pushed through the extreme taxes on tobacco,that it was the largest tax increase the poor had seen in quite some time. And one the libs didn't have enough gall to give earned smoking credits for.
And how many lives were saved by that?  The Clinton administration is the only one in the last 30 years to see an increase in the inflation corrected median personal income. 
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kathyp
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« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2011, 07:14:05 PM »

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People who used to be poor are usually the biggest proponents of class warfare against the poor.... because their own class was so hard won and they know how bad it is to be poor.  If you think the poor have it so great, why not quit working and go on the dole?  I don't think they have it good and most of them would love to have a job that paid a decent wage.

not so.  what we know is that no one needs to stay poor.  we also know the welfare institutionalizes poverty.  the welfare class is the only static population below the poverty level.  for almost everyone else, kids just starting out, etc., poverty is a temporary state.


Quote
If the rich paid taxes in proportion to the benefit they have received from society, there would be money to build infrastructure, fund education, and provide universal health care.  All of those things promote jobs and the ability of the middle class to earn a good living.

you seem to feel that anyone who makes more somehow owes something to everyone else. they didn't "receive something"  they earned something. never mind that the top 50% or so of income pay almost all the taxes.  the bottom 48% or so, pay none.  if the top 50% is paying over 95% of the taxes, then who's not paying enough?

the things you list do not promote a healthy middle class.  they promote a healthy government.  take the NHS for instance:  it is  the single biggest employer in the UK.  it is the 3rd largest employer in the world.  a healthy middle class is promoted in the private sector.  the only way the government can do all the things you list, is to take away from the private sector.  

how is it fair to take from those who earn, run it through the government, and give it to others who have not earned?  how is it efficient for the government (not known for efficiency) to take from the earners and run bloated programs?  since the government produces nothing and earns nothing, it can do nothing without taking from those who do produce and earn.  that doesn't sound like the road to a healthy anything, much less a healthy middle class.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2011, 07:20:38 PM »

I hate to tell ya frame shift,but I see a lot of those that can least afford it being the first ones in line for smokes at the stores.And you can not prove one life has been saved by the increase in the cigarette tax.I am a non smoker and don't care for it myself so it does not make my life shorter or longer either way.
And not one extra btu of energy has been produced from gasoline taxes.
Would you be willing to legislate that those receiving public funds be forced to stop smoking and take mandatory drug tests? Surely this would be a big help in moving from the poor "class" to the middle "class".

And I do see a lot of the poor that are always going to be that way by personal choices that they make.
I have seen with my own eyes many of these poor when given work that will not show up on time,or many times will not show up for a second day of work. I've even seen some leave at lunch time and not return. This is what makes me wary of what a lot of people perceive as poor.
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« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2011, 08:14:03 PM »


you seem to feel that anyone who makes more somehow owes something to everyone else. they didn't "receive something"  they earned something.

I guess this is the crux of our disagreement.  Yes, I think this is a society and not just an aggregation of individuals.  First of all, I know that many of the rich did NOT earn it.  They inherited it or stole it or used the labor of others to obtain it.  I have known plenty of people in each of those categories.  The government has no way of sorting out those who really earned their money, so a progressive income tax is the most fair way to redistribute that wealth.  Look, even those who you might say earned their money could not have earned it without the structures put in place by government.  Without currency, banks, roads, postal service, internet, etc etc. they could not operate their businesses.  And all of those structures were created by government.  And the employees they use to generate wealth got an education in public schools.  So public schools are a direct subsidy to employers.  Even national defense is a disproportionate benefit to the rich.  If the country were conquered, it's the rich who would have more to lose.  And it's the poor who do most of the fighting.

I've hired people on behalf of several private corporations and I know how their wage structures work.  There is very little relationship between how hard people work and how much they are paid.  So I guess I just don't believe in this idea that the rich should get to keep what they have "earned".

You may have noticed that China is kicking our butts economically.  They are not a free enterprise economy.  China has found a middle route where long term planning is done by government and those plans are executed using the market mechanism.  And China is building a middle class at the same time as ours is collapsing.  We are in the process of discovering that unregulated profit motive and no planning gets beat by the Chinese model.  That really scares me.  I think we need to get out act together and work as a society rather than for the benefit of a very few very rich folks at the top.
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« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2011, 08:31:31 PM »

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progressive income tax is the most fair way to redistribute that wealth


no, actually this is the crux of our disagreement.  you believe that wealth should be redistributed.  i do not.  i think it should be earned and should stay with the earner.  you believe it is somehow fair for the government to determine how wealthy i should be, and to take the "excess" and give it to someone else.


 
Quote
Without currency, banks, roads, postal service, internet,

those 1st 4 the government has managed to royally screw up.  the last?  the are just now getting to screwing up.  in fact, all of the things you mention have done better in the private sector than when the government is running them.  currency is screwed up by the fed reserve.  banks are screwed up because if congressional interference and now bailouts and outright take over.  state roads were built to facilitate trade.  the interstate highway system was needed and might have been a good idea, but it's not maintained and is now falling apart. i submit that if they had been built by states and companies, there would be the needs of commerce to maintain them.  the tax base can't seem to do it.  postal service?  you are joking, right? 
it is true that the internet was developed to meet communications needs of the military and other govt.  however, as soon as it became available to the public, it became the first truly free market thing we have had in a long time.  if you want to see what the market can do when the govt is not involved, the internet is a good example.  they sure couldn't wait to get their hands on that, could they? 

i don't think you can name one thing that is run by the government and runs well.  never mind runs efficiently or at reasonable cost.

it is amazing that libs scream freedom, but are so willing to give govt control over all that they do. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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