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Author Topic: Natural beekeeping/AFB question  (Read 7730 times)
AllenF
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« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2011, 10:02:19 AM »

Georgia requires burning for AFB.    Stop it right there in a blaze of glory.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2011, 10:19:27 AM »

>MB, Do you think re-dipping in your wax/rosin cooker would kill the spores? Maybe encapsulate them?

The research, as already quoted above, says that, yes.

If you search AFB in "a thousand answers to beekeeping questions" by C.C. Miller he gives the details of shaking them out from an era where there were no antibiotics and it was a well accepted successful technique.
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« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2011, 01:57:33 PM »

So far I've seen three treatments for AFB; 1 burn frames and toast boxes, 2 antibiotics, 3 dump onto clean foundation and comb (I didn't see antibiotics in conjunction with this but there may be).

Some answers might be different depending on which treatment.  It would be good to have the treatment stated.

There is a fourth that I know will work (ETO sterilization) but I don't think it was mentioned in this thread.  I saw it somewhere else.
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« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2011, 02:06:54 PM »

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Georgia requires burning for AFB.    Stop it right there in a blaze of glory.

This to me is a little like witchcraft.  You can tar and feather a person but that doesn't mean there isn't another one running around. 
It might be required and you might have a good feeling about this but I can guarantee you it won't stop it.  If you find AFB in one of your hives that bacteria and its spores are already in every hive within two miles for sure.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2011, 02:22:25 PM »

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the way to do it is shake the bees on foundation-leave them one frame of drawn comb-in 24 hrs
time the bees will have expelled any honey in there honey gut into the drawn frame-then remove that frame and feed feed feed-RDY-B

I read the link that deknow provided.  I understand that dumping the bees on to “clean” comb reduces the numbers of bacteria so the bees can regain their strength and be healthy again.  This is similar to treating with chemicals not all the bacteria will die and certainly not all the spores will be sterilized.

What concerns me is #1) the new equipment is now tainted, and #2) these bees had to be weak in the first place to be overcome with the disease.  What made that happen?  Is it genetics or a stress condition?  Another concern I have is how in the world do you get all the bees even if you did decided to burn the whole thing?  If you have an infection in one colony you certainly must have contamination is all the others close by.

I have a question for the ones that “de know”:  What defense mechanism does the bees use to kill off AFB bacteria?  Can we duplicate that mechanism?

the new equipment is not tatnted -spores are in the honey gut of the infected bee-passed through the feeding
 the new equipment is clean of spores-once the bee expells honey into the ONE frame of drawn comb-you remove it -and there goes the spores in that honey-feeding to flush bee with clean food-new equipment is not tanted-RDY-B
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rdy-b
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« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2011, 02:28:19 PM »

For the record, if my hive came down with AFB, I'm pretty sure it's required that I burn it.

 Not in MA.  states require "burning" or  "treatment" and retesting
 


     BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
  california requires burning -no prohalactic treatment-it is illegal to posses infected colony in cali
the info i posted for a way to save AFB colony is only of a informative nature-RDY-B
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Acebird
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« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2011, 02:57:33 PM »

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Disease spread
When cleaning infected cells, bees distribute spores throughout the entire colony. Disease spreads rapidly throughout the hive as the bees, attempting to remove the spore-laden dead larvae, contaminate brood food. Nectar stored in contaminated cells will contain spores and soon the brood chamber becomes filled with contaminated honey. As this honey is moved up into the supers, the entire hive becomes contaminated with spores. When the colony becomes weak from AFB infection, robber bees may enter and take contaminated honey back to their hives thereby spreading the disease to other colonies and apiaries. Beekeepers also may spread disease by moving equipment (frames or supers) from contaminated hives to healthy ones.
American Foul Brood spores are extremely resistant to desiccation and can remain viable for more than 40 years in honey and beekeeping equipment. Therefore honey from an unknown source should never be used as bee feed, and used beekeeping equipment should be assumed contaminated unless known to be otherwise.[12]

I know it is “wikipedia” but this is not unlike any bacterial infection.  The 100 billion spores go everywhere, on the bees, through out the hive and so on.  I would expect that it is even air borne.  The bees contract the disease by consuming food just like you would if you ate tainted food.  Unless you sterilize the equipment the live spores will be there.  Even that wouldn’t stop a reinfestation because the spores are most likely on the outside of the hive all over the bee yard for the other bees to just bring back in.

Now guessing on my part, the dumping of the bees on clean foundation might work so well because it gives the surviving bees a chance to build up an immunity to the bacteria that is still in the bee yard.

If it is not my SWAG something scientific would have to explain why the technique is so successful.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2011, 03:47:35 PM »

>  Unless you sterilize the equipment the live spores will be there. <
 



the spores are not live intill they SPORALATED--must have optiamon conditions
they can stay dormant for 100 years-once the outbreak occurs you must -kill
live spores-yes the spores are everywhere all the time-even in the air-but it is
not contagious till out break ocurs-RDY-B
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rdy-b
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« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2011, 04:34:18 PM »

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Now guessing on my part, the dumping of the bees on clean foundation might work so well because it gives the surviving bees a chance to build up an immunity to the bacteria that is still in the bee yard.


the reason using foundation with one drawn comb works -is the bees have no choice but to deposit-expel the honey
that is in there honey gut-(which could contain the sporalated spores from infected hive)-into the drawn frame-no-place else to put it -once removed-you have clean equipment and clean bees-RDY-B
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Jim 134
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« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2011, 04:36:01 PM »

So far I've seen three treatments for AFB; 1 burn frames and toast boxes, 2 antibiotics, 3 dump onto clean foundation and comb (I didn't see antibiotics in conjunction with this but there may be).

Some answers might be different depending on which treatment.  It would be good to have the treatment stated.

There is a fourth that I know will work (ETO sterilization) but I don't think it was mentioned in this thread.  I saw it somewhere else.


 Irradiation Program

 It will do drawn comb and all the wood,plastic,steel and so on.  

http://massbee.org/component/content/article/8-news-item/11-irradition-program

    BEE HAPPY Jim Smiley
« Last Edit: January 11, 2011, 04:49:16 PM by Jim 134 » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2011, 04:59:59 PM »

1.  in massachusetts in the 1970's, about 40% of the hives had AFB.  it was through extensive inspection and daily burnings that it was brought under control....it is now uncommon to find more than a few cases of AFB in the state per year...well under 0.1%.  to imply that burning is ineffective is pure ignorance.

2.  AFB doesn't affect adult bees.  shaking onto foundation with no brood and no food causes them to use up every bit of food drawing comb to rear brood on.  after 24 hours (some sources  recommend replacing the foundation after the first 24 hours), feed feed feed...the bees draw out the foundation, and it is 3 days before there are any larvae that need feeding...by that time, the bees cleaned things up, and the spore level is (hopefully) not enough to cause reinfection.

3.  Although dipping in molten parrifin _might_ kill the majority of AFB spores (depending on time and temp), molten beeswax is no where near hot enough to kill AFB spores.  Foundation made from AFB contaminated wax does not transmit AFB not because it is "sterilized"..those spores are just as viable as they were on the old comb....but most likely beceause they were encapsulated by the wax, and no longer are in a place where they will be fed to brood.

but i tire of all of this.  i'll leave it to the other list members, and perhaps moderators to keep things in check.  acebird is stating "facts" with "authority" that are so far off the mark that they are harmful to discourse and information available here (imho).

i'm all for asking questions, but much better questions could be asked (and answered) if he put a little effort into educating himself.

deknow
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Acebird
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« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2011, 05:10:16 PM »

Quote
the spores are not live intill they SPORALATED--must have optiamon conditions
they can stay dormant for 100 years-once the outbreak occurs you must -kill
live spores-yes the spores are everywhere all the time-even in the air-but it is
not contagious till out break ocurs-RDY-B

Well I couldn’t find a definition for the word “sporalated”, maybe sporulated?

Technically the spores are not live.  They are dormant but like seeds of a plant they can be made sterile through heat, cold, radiation and maybe mechanical means.  Like a seed when a spore finds a suitable environment then it will turn into the live organism like what it came from.

There really is no guarantee that torching the hive boxes would sterilize them because the spores could be protected in a crevice from the flame.  However an actual sterilization procedure would kill / destroy all spores and of course bacteria in the equipment.  ETO is enormously dangerous to the environment and is not a practical solution to the small bee keeper but maybe heat or cold could be used.  I do not know what the kill cycle is for AFB spores.
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« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2011, 05:17:11 PM »

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but i tire of all of this.  i'll leave it to the other list members, and perhaps moderators to keep things in check.


Didn't you do that already?  Having trouble with that ignore button?
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rdy-b
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« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2011, 05:31:58 PM »

 
Quote
             Well I couldn’t find a definition for the word “sporalated”, maybe sporulated?          

  thank you for the EDIT but like my friend FINSKI says-*it says same ting*
                                happy campers      RDY-B
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Jim 134
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« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2011, 06:03:45 PM »

Quote
the way to do it is shake the bees on foundation-leave them one frame of drawn comb-in 24 hrs
time the bees will have expelled any honey in there honey gut into the drawn frame-then remove that frame and feed feed feed-RDY-B

I read the link that deknow provided.  I understand that dumping the bees on to “clean” comb reduces the numbers of bacteria so the bees can regain their strength and be healthy again.  This is similar to treating with chemicals not all the bacteria will die and certainly not all the spores will be sterilized.

What concerns me is #1) the new equipment is now tainted, and #2) these bees had to be weak in the first place to be overcome with the disease.  What made that happen?  Is it genetics or a stress condition?  Another concern I have is how in the world do you get all the bees even if you did decided to burn the whole thing?  If you have an infection in one colony you certainly must have contamination is all the others close by.

I have a question for the ones that “de know”:  What defense mechanism does the bees use to kill off AFB bacteria?  Can we duplicate that mechanism?


 ABF kills larvae put bees on all new wood and  all new  foundation or foundationless or put bees in  Shipping   Packages for 3 or 4 days no WAX and do not FEED HONEY

     BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
« Last Edit: January 11, 2011, 06:54:54 PM by Jim 134 » Logged

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« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2011, 08:04:39 PM »

Jeez louise, I get too busy to check for one day! Look at all these replies! Anyway, I was talking mostly about prophylaxis (treating with terramycin before any infection is officially diagnosed).

Do you really think this is something that could be successfully done in the average bee yard?
Spraying new/inherited equipment down with saline solution in a spray bottle and letting it sit for 20 minutes? Sure, why not?
 
Quote
 I don't believe the average bee keeper has the expertise to pull this one off.  Do you?
Average bee keeper, no. Me, yes (biotech is my career)  grin State ag extension service, absolutely! A couple of science undergrads could whip up a big batch in a few weeks with minimal lab equipment, no problem.
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« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2011, 11:55:50 AM »

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Average bee keeper, no. Me, yes (biotech is my career) State ag extension service, absolutely! a couple of science undergrads could whip up a big batch in a few weeks with minimal lab equipment, no problem.

So what are you waiting for?  Get started now.  I know it is going to take at least 6 years of work getting it approved by the FDA.  Somehow you have to prove that its use will not affect the natural antibiotic features of honey, affect general agriculture in a negative way, and of course is not harmful to humans.  When and if you succeed how will you (or anyone) get back the capital you spent on this project if anyone can duplicate it so easily?  Apparently, the technique is very old so the processes cannot be patented.  This is another case of money talks.  There will never be a cure for cancer but there will be and has been billions spent on treating the disease.

Now, a cure for MRSA that’s a different ballgame.  If you have the skills to whip up a batch of phage for that you are golden.  I would get right on that one.
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Rosalind
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« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2011, 02:22:27 PM »


So what are you waiting for?

Spring!

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I know it is going to take at least 6 years of work getting it approved by the FDA.  Somehow you have to prove that its use will not affect the natural antibiotic features of honey, affect general agriculture in a negative way, and of course is not harmful to humans.
Something like that. Which is why I asked, does anyone know if this has been looked into? I don't have journal access to some of the older beekeeping things, especially those that circulated in the ex-USSR, and much of their ag science is being lost to posterity.
Quote
When and if you succeed how will you (or anyone) get back the capital you spent on this project if anyone can duplicate it so easily?  
Not much capital required, phage is considered GRAS already for topical and non-injected drugs. It's in commercial use for deli meat, so there is actually minimal tox work to do. The isolation process itself tends to demonstrate specificity, although this is also a simple experiment.

Quote
Now, a cure for MRSA that’s a different ballgame.  If you have the skills to whip up a batch of phage for that you are golden.  I would get right on that one.

See the following:
Gu et al. 2011 Journal of Clinical Microbiology 49(1): 111-117
Pastagia et al. 2010 Antimicrobial Agents and Chemotherapy Nov 22 epub ahead of print
Capparelli et al. 2007 Antimicrobial Agents and Chemotherapy 51(issue eight): 2765-2773
However, the Capparelli group has done a lot of molecular work towards a MRSA vaccine. Vaccination is cheaper than phage prep for humans, and the current strategies that hospitals are using to contain MRSA are sort of tilted in the direction of vaccination.

Edited because my "issue eight" came out as a sunglasses smiley face...oops
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« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2011, 06:44:36 PM »

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phage is considered GRAS already for topical and non-injected drugs.


I think you know more than I do on this subject but if there is any way the phage can get into the honey that humans eat it pulls it out of the topical / non-injected class.

Quote
current strategies that hospitals are using to contain MRSA are sort of tilted in the direction of vaccination.

That sounds like a strategy for the hospital staff but not for a patient that has it.
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« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2011, 06:53:09 PM »

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Capparelli et al. 2007 Antimicrobial Agents and Chemotherapy 51(issue eight): 2765-2773

I looked this up.  It figures that something as simple as this was done outside of the US.  People who think that we have the best medical system in the world are so wrong.  We are way behind everybody it seems.
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