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Author Topic: Natural beekeeping/AFB question  (Read 9588 times)

Offline Rosalind

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Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2011, 08:20:50 PM »

I think you know more than I do on this subject but if there is any way the phage can get into the honey that humans eat it pulls it out of the topical / non-injected class.
Well, anti-Listeria phage is being used commercially to remove contamination from meat intended for human consumption. That was what pushed FDA to add phage in general to the GRAS list. Parenterals (drugs for injection) are sort of a special class vs. oral dosing, due to the way your body processes orally ingested stuff. Most biologics, regardless of origin or type (there are a few exceptions but not many) are thought to be inactivated when taken orally, as they don't survive digestion except in very rare cases with special formulations.

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That sounds like a strategy for the hospital staff but not for a patient that has it.
For non-emergency patients who test positive for MRSA, the current public health recommendation is to see if any antibiotics (e.g. vancomycin) will work for the patient before they are admitted to a hospital, and treat them until they test negative. Not all hospitals are doing this, only the ones with known MRSA problems or severely at-risk populations, such as hospitals with burn wards. No sense in taking in a patient for elective surgery, only to put the whole hospital at risk of infection. Insisting that elective surgery patients be up-to-date on vaccinations before arriving at the hospital is no different or more of a burden than insisting they have their bloodwork done before arriving--it's already routine.

Aaaaannnnywaaaayyyy. I guess I will email the local state ag university folks and see what they are up to with honeybees. Last I checked, they were more interested in crop genetics though. Gosh, I was hoping someone here would have ideas about bee infections, oh well.
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Offline hardwood

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Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2011, 08:48:49 PM »
I think you're on a good track Rosalind. We all have curiosities but you have the education and can imagine an outcome...keep it up!

Scott
"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

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Offline Acebird

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Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2011, 10:56:59 AM »
I think you're on a good track Rosalind. We all have curiosities but you have the education and can imagine an outcome...keep it up!

Scott

I second that.
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Offline Countryboy

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Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2011, 11:56:46 PM »
IIRC, AFB exposed to chlorine for 20 minutes kills AFB spores.  The problem is getting penetration.  Surface disinfection is all you get.  Ozone fumigation does not appear to be of much help for AFB because it does not penetrate, but does show benefits to other diseases like chalk, and it also reduces levels of chemicals in comb.

IIRC, foulbrood was considered to be a minor nuisance prior to the 1900's.  Of course, combs were not reused as much back then.  There were still a lot of natural comb hives.

Dadant had an apiary at their wax rendering facility years ago.  The bees were constantly exposed to AFB, and became resistant to AFB.  When the bees were moved, they no longer had the AFB exposure, and lost their AFB resistance.  No one likes to talk much about Dadant's AFB resistant apiary though.  People would rather forget about it and advocate chemicals.

A former state apiary inspector told me once that by burning you can keep AFB levels to <0.5% of hives.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2011, 09:36:21 AM »
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When the bees were moved, they no longer had the AFB exposure, and lost their AFB resistance.


This is interesting.  I wonder if it is the exposure difference or the breeding with non resistant bees that caused the loss in resistance to AFB after the move. :?
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2011, 09:39:33 AM »
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IIRC, AFB exposed to chlorine for 20 minutes kills AFB spores.


Are we talking chlorine gas or liquid solutions?  And at what concentrations?
BTW what does "IIRC" stand for?
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Offline Rosalind

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Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2011, 05:13:58 PM »
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IIRC, AFB exposed to chlorine for 20 minutes kills AFB spores.


Are we talking chlorine gas or liquid solutions?  And at what concentrations?
BTW what does "IIRC" stand for?

Gas disinfection typically isn't gas per se, it's actually a vapor of hypochlorite, peroxide, or gas plasma. Ozone sometimes used in water treatment plants, but it has a materials compatibility issue with most stuff, so it's not used much. In some old hospitals they use ethylene oxide, but that is getting phased out as too hazardous. Although chlorine gas will work, I am not a huge fan of it, mostly because my eyeballs never did anything that bad to me. And yes, penetration is not simple--it's very difficult to get the concentration of gas all the way into long twisty crevices. Modern gas sterilization is done in a vacuum chamber to ensure the gas is drawn all the way down into those cracks. I've got a ton of junk out in the barn, but a vacuum chamber...not so much.  :-\
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2011, 07:15:23 PM »
Anything used to kill microbs will be extremely dangerous to humans.  That includes extreme heat or cold.
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Offline Countryboy

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Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
« Reply #48 on: January 26, 2011, 11:34:34 PM »
IIRC is If I Remember Correctly.

I was referring to using liquid chlorine bleach as a disinfectant.  Once again, liquids have limited penetrating effect...but the chlorine can kills the spores it comes in contact with.

9 parts water and 1 part chlorine bleach is a common solution for spraying equipment with.


Offline rdy-b

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Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
« Reply #49 on: January 27, 2011, 01:19:47 AM »
             
>Research by Dr. Mark Goodwin found that a 0.2% solution of bleach (sodium
hypochlorite) was effective against AFB spores, but recommends that one use
a 0.5% solution just to be sure.  That solution works out to be about 1:9
bleach to water for regular U.S. bleach (5% NaOCl).  "Ultra" bleach is 6%
NaOCl, thus about 1/5th stronger.<


http://www.nba.org.nz/node/60      8-)  RDY-B

Offline Acebird

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Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
« Reply #50 on: January 27, 2011, 09:21:53 AM »
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IIRC is If I Remember Correctly.

Thanks for letting me know, I have never seen that one before.

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>Research by Dr. Mark Goodwin found that a 0.2% solution of bleach (sodium
hypochlorite) was effective against AFB spores, but recommends that one use
a 0.5% solution just to be sure.  That solution works out to be about 1:9
bleach to water for regular U.S. bleach (5% NaOCl).  "Ultra" bleach is 6%
NaOCl, thus about 1/5th stronger.<

That was the clarification I was looking for, thanks rdy-b.  Keep in mind that liquid bleach looses its punch very rapidly.  If you spray your equipment with bleach do you rinse it to get off the precipitates left behind?
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Offline T Beek

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Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
« Reply #51 on: January 27, 2011, 10:15:39 AM »
I Don't want to spoil the party, rock the boat or open a can of worms (been done to death already), but it seems clear to me (just me) that household bleach (any bleach) and Natural Beekeeping don't belong together.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
« Reply #52 on: January 27, 2011, 10:48:16 AM »
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but it seems clear to me (just me) that household bleach (any bleach) and Natural Beekeeping don't belong together.

I agree and where does commercialization fit in to natural and organic beekeeping methods amongst all you non hobbyist?  You are worried about bleach?  There is probably as many harmful chemicals in sugar that remain with the hive.

We discussed ETO, phage, and other treatments in this forum.  Are they natural and organic?  No objection to discussing these?
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Offline Countryboy

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Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
« Reply #53 on: January 27, 2011, 10:14:33 PM »
I Don't want to spoil the party, rock the boat or open a can of worms (been done to death already), but it seems clear to me (just me) that household bleach (any bleach) and Natural Beekeeping don't belong together.

In my state, it is illegal to keep bees in skeps and gums.  Conventional hives and natural beekeeping don't belong together either.

You are not applying the bleach to the bees.  You are applying it to the hives.  How is bleach any different from painting hives?  Other than the bleach being present for a short time, whereas paint sticks around longer.

If you spray your equipment with bleach do you rinse it to get off the precipitates left behind?

I don't.  The bees can clean it up if they don't like it.  Bleach is commonly added to sugar water to keep it from fermenting.

Offline T Beek

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Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
« Reply #54 on: January 28, 2011, 10:16:46 AM »
So what State is that you're from?

Not sure about how "common" it is that bleach is used in or around hives.  I don't and I don't know anyone else who does.  Lots of folks are now advocating NOT painting hives.

thomas
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
« Reply #55 on: January 28, 2011, 11:11:04 AM »
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Bleach is commonly added to sugar water to keep it from fermenting.

Doesn't suprise me.   It is added to the food we eat so why not the bees.  I don't think most hobbyists do it though.
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Offline Countryboy

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Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
« Reply #56 on: January 28, 2011, 10:54:10 PM »
I'm in Ohio, which requires that all hives have removable frames.  Natural beehives do not have removable frames.

I don't think most hobbyists do it though.

Quite a few hobbyists buy a new package every spring because their hive died out over the winter.  If more hobbyists were taught how to keep bees alive, you might find more hobbyists doing things like spraying deadout combs with bleach to knock down background levels of diseases.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
« Reply #57 on: January 29, 2011, 09:38:22 AM »
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Natural beehives do not have removable frames.

So who do the authorities write the summons to?  :? :-D
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Offline T Beek

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Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
« Reply #58 on: January 29, 2011, 10:17:22 AM »
 :lau: :lau:
"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."

 

anything