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Author Topic: Honey Harvest without Queen Excluders...  (Read 4513 times)
Apis629
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« on: June 04, 2005, 11:54:49 PM »

I've heard from this forum that queen excluders basicly can be considered "honey excluders".  I was wondering if one can get full supers of honey for extraction, without brood, without using a queen excluder or if there is any particulat time of year that this can be accomplished.(i.e. after main honeyflow, durring main honeyflow, befor main honeyflow, etc.)
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Miss Chick-a-BEE
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« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2005, 09:02:38 AM »

The queen might go up into your honey supers, but it's not really a problem. Generally she only lays in the center frames. Sometimes only in one center frame. So just don't extract that one, and maybe trade it with one of the outside frames from a box below the honey super. But of course put the brood next to the other brood when you switch out.

Beth
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2005, 04:29:44 PM »

Contrary to popular belief, the queen is not wanting to lay eggs willy nilly all over the hive.  She wants a consolidated brood nest.  The workers also want a consolidated brood nest.  BUT they both want to raise some drones.  Since we give them nothing but worker foundation in the brood nest (at least most people do) she is desperate to lay drones, which she will do a patch of here and there in the supers, sometimes with a little worker brood next to it so there's enough to take care of.

So what you will find, with no excluder is either no brood in the supers, or a patch or two of drone brood.  I put the supers on an escape.  But the escape doesn't work well at all if there is any brood at all.  So if I come back and find a lot of bees STILL in the supers, I know I need to look for the brood.  If most have left, I know there is no brood.

Then I brush each frame off anyway to try to get all the stragglers.  I always miss a dozen or so all together, but since I'm extracting in my kitchen I need to get most of them.
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Michael Bush
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Apis629
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« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2005, 12:10:05 AM »

The one thing I'm most concerned about is if honey is stored in cells that have been used for brood rearing will it take on the coloration of larval defecation?
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2005, 11:07:59 AM »

>The one thing I'm most concerned about is if honey is stored in cells that have been used for brood rearing will it take on the coloration of larval defecation?

The bees polish and clean all the cells before they use them for anything.  Cleanliness is one of the bees best traits.  The honey will appear darker when it's in the comb, but that is an illusion.  It will not be darker when you extract it.
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Michael Bush
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Apis629
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« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2005, 08:44:06 PM »

Oh...Ok then.  I guess I just saved $10.00 without buying a queen excluder!
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AdmiralD
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« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2005, 02:12:06 PM »

I was thinking that If I put a super inbetween the medium plastic frames and the brood that the super would be the bees honey and I would have everything above it in my medium frames.

It seems practical, but the real question is- does it work? Would that super, that hopefully will fill with honey, keep the queen from laying in the upper medium frames?

So, the hive would stack like  like this

Medium-your honey-[wishfull thinking]
medium- your honey
super- Bees honey-winter storage
hive body- brood
hive body-brood


Of course, we are also talking about the time of year and where you are for honey flows. Being on the west coast, in Oregon, my climate conditions are more like Virgina  on the coast, I suspect. [Never been to the east coast at all.]  During the last 2 years being here, I suspect my growing season is from early march to late November, possibly into early December.

So, Let's say that we are talking about now and early spring. Would this  system seem to keep out queen out of the medium frames??
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Robo
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« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2005, 03:48:20 PM »

Quote from: AdmiralD
I was thinking that If I put a super inbetween the medium plastic frames and the brood that the super would be the bees honey and I would have everything above it in my medium frames.


Not a bad idea, but like anything else in beekeeping it will not be fool proof.  Some queens are content to stay in the first two deeps and other just like to keep climbing.  I have had some queens that have gone 5 deeps high.

I think people are too concerned with brood in the honey supers.  Unless you are doing comb honey, don't waste any time worrying about it.  At the worse, you have to skip a couple of frames when extracting.  But in most cases, the bees will start filling the cells once the brood emerges before the queen has a chance to lay in the cells again.  

Chances are, but trying to prevent it,  you will either make it happen or reduce their honey production.  

Just leave her be and you will be fine.
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Finsky
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« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2005, 04:42:15 PM »

Quote from: AdmiralD
, but the real question is- does it work? Would that super, that hopefully will fill with honey, keep the queen from laying in the upper medium frames?



I have nursed my bees 40 years without exluder.  The point is that you have 3 deep for brood and other boxes low supers (Farrar)

If you have too few brood frames, of course queen lays eggs into honey frames.

I take mixed honey-brood frames and I lift them upwards. Then bees emerge and cells will filled with honey. I give foundations to build during honeyflow.

I use 3 deep box + 4-6 honey supers. I do not worry where queen is. It it important that it is in the hive, and not in the sky with swarm.   Cheesy

Towards  autumn queen minish egg laying and I can take honey away. I take the last honey away in forest pastures, transport my hives to home yard and feed hives with sugar during one week.
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Butterchurn
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« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2005, 12:58:24 AM »

I have a question about adding foundation to build a new colony.

Example:  I started a package on April 30 in a medium on foundation.  I have no drawn comb to give them. On one hive I put on a second medium with foundation when they had drawn 7 combs in the first box and yesterday I put on a third medium with foundation as they had drawn the second box.  The bees are showing signs of wanting to swarm in that hive.

What is your advice?  Should I just give them this third medium with foundation, or give them more supers with foundation?  I want to give them the room that they need, but I'm wondering what extra boxes of only foundation will help? Would it help or should I just put on one at a time?

Thanks.

Ron
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Butterchurn (Ron)
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« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2005, 02:14:29 AM »

Quote from: Butterchurn
I have a question about adding foundation to build a new colony

Example:  I started a package on April 30 in a medium on foundation.  I have no drawn comb to give them.

The bees are showing signs of wanting to swarm in that hive.

What is your advice?  


If bees have queen cells, they are going to swarm. Hive in swarming fever does not build any foundations.

DO THIS:

* Move your  hive in new place 5 feet apart or more.
* Put foundation box in old place and do it a hive.
* Take a queen and one frame of brood and put them into new hive.

Now they are not able to swarm. Flying bees go to new hive and start building. DO NOT FEED THEM!  Idea is stop swarming. Let them be their own.
 
In old box new bees emerge and it will be a hive. You must get an egg laying gueen inside. From swarming queen cells you get ne queen but it take too long time taht it begins to lay eggs.  And it has inherited tend to swarm.

Olf hive has a lot of food. DO NOT FEED IT!

I think that continuous feeding fills the tiny hive, queen has not enough  space to lay eggs.

I have said in every place, that greatest danger in small hive is that honey fills combs and queen is not satisfied with brood space, So they want to swarm. That happens to beginner and no one can help them because they do not listen.

In my country small hives swarm very soon when they are near rape field. Hive will be full under one week. When I have mating nucs and it has 2 frame, another frame will be full of honey in one week and that little nuc will swarm. So simple.  Rape field gives often 100 lbs honey per hive  in one week.

You can see, how much it must be free space when I put hives on rape fiels. I must be prepared to take 200 lbs honey in two week from rape field. It is not usual, but I must be prepared. Soon after that I got fireweed yield. Get or not, but I must be prepared.

One farrar box has honey 30 lbs and Langstroth box 50 lbs.
One full  langtroth frame may have 5 lbs honey.

Feeding and filling combs support swarming.
Extracting honey hinders swarming.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2005, 09:44:42 AM »

>I think that continuous feeding fills the tiny hive, queen has not enough space to lay eggs.

>I have said in every place, that greatest danger in small hive is that honey fills combs and queen is not satisfied with brood space, So they want to swarm. That happens to beginner and no one can help them because they do not listen.

I agree, but all the books here say you should feed them until they don't take it.  The beginners keep reading the same books and making the same mistakes.
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Michael Bush
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Butterchurn
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« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2005, 11:42:43 AM »

I'm still not sure how many boxes I should put on.  Should I just keep putting on one box of foundation at a time, or at this point in the season, start putting on several mediums with foundation?

Thanks.

Ron
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Butterchurn (Ron)
Apis629
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« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2005, 01:06:20 PM »

If you do several boxes befor they're ready you will get a chimmney pattern of honey filled in the cells.
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Finsky
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« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2005, 05:37:58 PM »

Quote from: Butterchurn
I'm still not sure how many boxes I should put on.


Try first one. If bees hang outside, put another box. If your original hive is 5 box, so you can try two box at once.
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Finsky
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« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2005, 05:40:29 PM »

Quote from: Michael Bush

I agree, but all the books here say you should feed them until they don't take it.  The beginners keep reading the same books and making the same mistakes.


Really odd! Of course bees take sugar untill hive is filled with it.
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