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Author Topic: Trap out/Fume out - first timer, input requested.  (Read 3174 times)
deejaycee
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« on: January 01, 2011, 09:47:01 PM »

Hi all

Got a call today from an aunt of DH who has just bought a five foot tall terracotta statue.  She's a greek-robed woman with an urn on
her shoulder (the statue, not the aunt) and the mouth of the urn is a hive entrance (only about an inch and a half across).  Purely by luck they viewed and moved the statue home in the evening and had no idea there was a resident hive until the next day when the bees started foraging. 

I suspect it's a very young hive, as uncle didn't notice any undue weight when moving the statue, though there were two guys lifting it, but it appears to have pretty good population.


The statue is hollow, with (I'm told) a large opening in the base, though according to aunt there's no bees or comb visible from down there.   We believe she'll be hollow allthe way up with no barrier between the open base and the urn opening.  Nothing of the hive is acccessible to us byhand.  Now, while they'd like to keep the bees alive, I don't think they're going to be up for weeks of trapping out... so here's what I'm thinking:

A fume out.

We take out a super with a ventilated base/lid and comb in it and a frame of brood.  Use a piece of hose from the urn mouth to the super (which is otherwise sealed).

Lift the statue a foot or two on bricks so we can access underneath.  Smoke and fume with beequick to force the bees out their urn entrance and into the sealed (but ventilated) super. 

Dust hands off, have a cup of tea, politely accept wild applause from the gallery.

Think it'll work? 

the one potential snag I see is that the urn sits next to her head, so her head is at a similar or slightly higher level than the urn - bees in the head would have to move down six inches and over to get to the exit.  It's not that far, but who knows with bees?

Obviously then we've got to clean out whatever we can and seal her up - clean out will basically have to be hosing out with as much pressure as the statue can safely take, and we've explained she'll be a magnet for swarms - so they'll have to seal her up well.

So is it worth a shot or do we just say 'trap out or nothing'?
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AllenF
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« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2011, 09:53:19 PM »

I would just stick to a plain old trap out.   You can build up something for the trap hive to sit on to get it high enough.  Seal up, funnel, and set the bait hive to trap them buggers out.
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kathyp
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« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2011, 09:58:49 PM »

i'm not the trap out person, but using a hose to the new hive doesn't sound like a good idea.  fuming them out if you  need them to move quickly might help, but i'd second Allen on doing a regular trap out.  don't forget the brood in the bait hive.

maybe iddee will be able to give you some better help.  PM him if he doesn't see this.
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deejaycee
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« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2011, 12:01:06 AM »

True, Kathy - was thinking fumes would concentrate in a hose, so maybe need to go more of a mesh funnel.

hmmm... ok, so if we go trapout... just how long does the trapout need to remain in place?
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kathyp
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« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2011, 12:10:22 AM »

http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,20301.0.html

look through here and see if this helps.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
bud1
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« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2011, 10:19:06 AM »

wait till spring; get a hammer, bust it open and presto bees fo yo new hive
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iddee
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« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2011, 11:24:37 AM »

Personally, I wouldn't touch it. It is a conversation piece with no boundaries. Just go spend a couple hours teaching auntie about bees. Walk up and put your finger in the urn opening. Let a few foragers land on your hand. Convince her how safe they are. Then let her enjoy watching them and talking to visitors.

Like bud, if you remove the bees, you devalue the statue so greatly you may as well burst it open.
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« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2011, 11:33:32 AM »

Personally, I wouldn't touch it. It is a conversation piece with no boundaries. Just go spend a couple hours teaching auntie about bees. Walk up and put your finger in the urn opening. Let a few foragers land on your hand. Convince her how safe they are. Then let her enjoy watching them and talking to visitors.

Like bud, if you remove the bees, you devalue the statue so greatly you may as well burst it open.

But dont let Iddee fool you, he's known here as the trapout king.
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JP
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« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2011, 11:44:22 AM »

Could also seal it up with fine mesh and put it on an airplane and lug it over to Bud3s. We all could then really have some fun with it!  grin

All kidding aside it would be really cool to leave them in, you could catch swarms from them.

You will never get all the comb out, but wax moths can do a good job of that once the bees vacate if that day comes.

If they have to go, you will need to do a trap out, plain and simple.


...JP
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Robo
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« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2011, 12:55:38 PM »

I'm with the leave it crowd.

But if that is not an option, I have doubts about your fume out method and would suggest a traditional trap out.   I once tried a fume out from a tree and it was a disaster.  Used almost half a bottle of Bee Go.  It is very hard to get the queen to leave the brood.

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iddee
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« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2011, 01:05:38 PM »

Fume out result #1...
It doesn't work.
Bees are still there.

Fume out result #2...
It does work
Bees are gone and 21 days of larva and pupa are basking in the sun, rotting.
Honey is fermenting and adds the yeast smell to the rotting meat smell.
Humans evacuate the area because of the smell.
All pests for 5 kilos come to spread the stink, further evacuating the humans.

Trap out, done properly, result....
Bees gone, brood gone, honey gone, conversation piece gone.
Beekeeper has one or more additional hives with new queens.

TAKE YOUR CHOICE
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deejaycee
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« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2011, 03:07:19 PM »

ok, thanks all.  I'll try and sell them on the trap out. 

a couple of clarification points:

bud1 - first, it's mid-summer here in New Zealand.  No waiting required.  Second, it's a thousand dollar statue - there ain't no busting it open.

Third - it's illegal to keep bees except in movable frame hives here in NZ.  We don't treat for AFB, we burn, and we've had an outbreak locally just recently - legalities aside, there's no way I can ethically advocate letting them stay.  They gotta go one way or another.

Lastly, if the fumeout were done, of course we'd not leave the remains inside the statue.  With the bees gone we should be able to get in with rods to break up the comb and then hose out the debris. 
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deejaycee
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« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2011, 04:04:05 AM »

ok, trap out is in place.  there's clear activity, but it's certainly a small population.   It'll be interesting to see how it goes.

a couple of pics:



« Last Edit: January 05, 2011, 03:47:07 PM by Robo » Logged
greenbtree
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« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2011, 05:04:17 PM »

Do you have a funnel arrangement in the system somewhere?  It is my understanding that if the bees have access to the original hive they won't leave - they just have a longer path to the outside world is all.  Too bad leaving them is not an option, it was so cool as is.  Understand that you can't though.

JC
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« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2011, 05:52:55 PM »

It's hard for me to tell from the pic but is your cone solid? They'll go right bask in with a solid cone...it needs to be wire mesh, usually #8 hardware cloth.

Scott
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deejaycee
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« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2011, 04:00:27 PM »

Hi Scott

No,not solid - it's actually a propolis mat cut up.   'heavier' material than I would have liked, but all we had on hand as it has been public holidays here the last few days.   I'll be checking in tonight to see how its going and switch it up tomorrow if needed.
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Tommyt
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« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2011, 07:12:06 PM »

deejaycee
 I also see you have the cone going into the box ,you just let the end into the air when the bees return they will go to the Urn and they will then move into the hive entrance because they can't get to their hive
 I don't know if you put the cone in the hive if they will find it and go back to the original hive
 I'd PM IDEEE  because for all I know I am wrong and it will work either way

Good Luck
Tommyt
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hardwood
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« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2011, 09:32:53 PM »

Good catch Tommy...yes, the bees fly off to do their thing whether through the box or not. It's actually when they return that the trap works. They will fly back to the old entrance to try and get in and end up at the base of the cone. Your entrance to the trap hive should be touching the statue as close to the base of the cone as possible.

Scott
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"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

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deejaycee
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« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2011, 01:51:22 PM »

Hi Tommy

No, the photo is a bit visually deceiving.  The funnel doesn't go into the hive - it is however attached to the outside edge of the landing board for stabiliity.  The other end of the landing board butts right up to the original urn opening.
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Acebird
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« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2011, 02:43:27 PM »

A few questions if you don’t mind:

Quote
It is very hard to get the queen to leave the brood.

If that is true how can a trap out work?

Quote
Trap out, done properly, result....
Bees gone, brood gone, honey gone, conversation piece gone.

Can you explain how the brood gets out?  I  didn’t see that in the other post.
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