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Author Topic: Gardening illegal?  (Read 6147 times)
kathyp
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« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2010, 08:56:58 PM »

interesting comment.  not sure what to make of it.  what makes you think i am well off?  if i were, would that be a problem for you?

here is a little exercise that we were instructed to do long ago.  don't feel bad if you can't finish it.  it should be done on a day when everyone is home.

turn off your main breaker and your main water valve.  you may fill buckets of water from an outside hose, but you must not use any indoor plumbing and you must not cook indoors.  you may use a barbecue.  you  may not use any heat in your house. you may only use candles for light. you may not go to the store for anything.  see how long your family can last.  the goal is to make it at least 24  hours, but few families can do it.

yes, i know that when the power goes out people last for days.  at least they usually can flush the toilet....unless, like me, they are on a well. that kind of sucks  and most of the time, weather permitting, you can go to the store or some warm place. hey, i am not even asking you to go kill your own food or dig your own veggies.  smiley

it's' not  about being well off...or not.  it's about the pesky thing called history.  we have enough of it to know how difficult life was back in the good old days.  that's not to say it was all bad, but would you really trade then for now? you would have tribal government in exchange for the life you  now enjoy?  most of life then was about survival.

what's wrong with working to make the life and government you have, better?

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
lenape13
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« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2010, 09:21:22 PM »

As one of those original inhabitants, let me tell you a little story... it WAS NOT all rosy and pleasant.   Survival was often difficult, especially in the winter months.  Wars could be very prolonged and violent, depending on who the combatants were.  I trained in the old ways, and follow them still.  I can survive off the land if necessary, but it would not be fun, and in no way a paradise.  Just because you read a couple of books, written by whites, no doubt, does not make you an expert on native life.  And don't think the "government" was perfect either.  There were good leaders, and really bad ones.  We are human beings and subject to the same wants, desires, and temptations, then, just as now.  Yes, utopia is a myth.  It never existed, and I doubt it will ever become a reality.  Okay, I'll stop here before I REALLY start ranting..... grin
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iddee
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« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2010, 09:27:44 PM »

Kathy, although I agree with you, your challenge would be easy for me. I lived my first 18 years without running water. We carried it all in buckets and tubs. We had one light socket in each room downstairs, no electrical upstairs. No receptacles anywhere in the house. We cooked on woodstoves and kerosene stoves. Heated with fireplaces and woodstoves. Never had a chainsaw or logsplitter. Only a crosscut saw and axes.

Today, we have a couple hundred jars of home canned food, portable heat, portable generators, candles, lanterns and camping stoves. We are prepared for a minimum 30 days without power or transportation. We are also on a well system.

It's the ones who consider a microwave and can opener as mandatory essentials that I pity if a problem should come along.

PS. And I don't need to government spoon to feed me.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2010, 09:33:26 PM »

lenape, I for one would love to hear some of your stories...maybe a new thread?

iddee, you and I just HAVE to get together some time, if WW3 ever comes it's people like you that I'd want watching my back!

AScott
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"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1907
kathyp
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« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2010, 09:58:22 PM »

we have been putting away a lot of dried food in addition to canned.  we also have stores of MRE's that we have saved from our various adventures.  i  happen to like them smiley
i have been thinking about putting a backup  hand pump on the well.  i'm not to concerned about the water as the well is shallow and pulling it out by bucket would be doable...although a PIA.

got some good ideas from One Second After.  most of the stuff for our own survival we have done or planned for.  some of the things that might go on with people around us, i had not really considered.  it's a good read and has some good thoughts on survival when it all goes to hedoublel.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
iddee
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« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2010, 10:18:38 PM »

I have two farm tractors and two 15 KW PTO driven generators, one 30 KW PTO driven. I can run my well and a lot more. I keep 20 gallon of diesel and 10 gallon of gas on hand at all times. I also have three freezers full of veggies and venison. The generators will keep them going, too. That goes with over a thousand pounds of canned beef in my basement, which I paid a whopping 12 1/2 cent per pound for.

hardwood, I have a 12 X 60 mobile home not being used. It has water, electric, refer, stove, heat, ETC. It's yours when you get here. Just ask JP. He used it last week.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2010, 10:32:09 PM »

Would not takemuch to survive here either. have plenty of canned food, kerosene heaters with several 5 gallon cans of kerosene, fire wood, fireplaces, city water and a well, generators and gas to run them, cattle, deer, squirrels, rabbits and turkey in the field, veggies in the garden, canoe and plenty of fishing gear with a lake 1/4 mile away, fair stash of meds and first aid stuff, tools and a bunch of junk to cobble just about anything together, guns ammo and an attitude to defend family and property.

Don't mean to come off sounding like a know it all or anything but could last a day or two.
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see my swarms and cut outs at https://www.youtube.com/user/soapy22bullet?feature=mhee

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iddee
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« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2010, 10:39:05 PM »

You don't sound like a know it all, just a common old country boy. As Hank Jr. said, A country boy can survive.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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kathyp
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« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2010, 11:44:46 PM »

Maybe a country girl also? smiley
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
iddee
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« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2010, 11:46:00 PM »

Likely better than a country boy could.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
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« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2010, 01:04:13 AM »

I've done sort of hardcore survival camping - where you spend a weekend with a 22, a fishing pole, and a half gallon  of water per day (I'm horrible at coming up with "wild salad") but the weekend goal was simple: if no one caught or shot dinner - no one ate. We did allow ourselves a campfire though. and missed a couple meals but not really a big deal in the scheme of things.
Hardcore survival is the two weeks of snare, forage, or starve, - not the officer's club version. Can't say I've had that delight.
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Acebird
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« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2010, 08:19:59 AM »

 
Quote
most of life then was about survival.


This is how I know because life hasn't changed much for those that are not well off.

Are you a history teacher?  Can you site one instance where the human race learned from there past mistakes?
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Scadsobees
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« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2010, 12:41:04 PM »

If this conversation, big corporations versus communism and government is about America, then you need to redefine survival.

I think that the discussion has been about staying alive and providing food for today.

As bad as things are in America, as many people who may go hungry on occasion, there isn't starvation (hunger <> starvation).

Survival in america is usually about which bill to pay first, how to come up with money to buy the kids toys (they NEED to get presents!).

There are plenty who weren't well off in the past that are well off now (iddee in the house?), and there are lots who were well of a couple years ago that are doing poorly now?

Learning from past mistakes?  I'm guessing that there are a lot of people right now who are going to choose NOT to buy a house that they can't afford again.

Thomas Edison worked through hundreds of past mistakes before he came up with the light bulb.  Ford worked through lots of mistakes before he got his first car running.

The human race lessons learned?  Good point, we have a bright vivid lesson right over there on the other side of our hemisphere, but for some reason people seem blind to it and insist on racing back to it.  Russia, France, Greece, yeah, that's what we want here!
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iddee
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« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2010, 12:51:26 PM »

What is well off?
Would 75,000 a year make you well off?

Ask the guy who just jumped from 18,000 to 75,000 annually. then ask the guy who just dropped from 600,000 to 75,000 annually. You may get two entirely different answers.

Most people who live within their means are well off. Those that don't, are not doing so well.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
lenape13
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« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2010, 01:17:52 PM »

Pam and I pay cash for everything.  If we don't have the money, we don't need it.  I do most of our vehicle and equipment repairs and build most everything we need around our little homestead.  I salvage wood and other items to make what we need.  There is no way we could afford to do otherwise.  This year's projects include a root cellar, a greenhouse, and an outdoor oven.  I do odd jobs for extra cash, which we use to purchase "luxury items".  We are fortunate enough to live in a neighborhood in which people still help one another, so bigger projects are made easier with many hands.  (We will all be gardening again this year, and no doubt sharing our harvests, so perhaps we'll all be in jail as eco-terrorists.)  We gave up our satellite tv years ago, along with our land line.  We have basic cell phones with talk only plans and an internet connection to keep in touch with distant family and friends.  I have even been known to write letters.  People need to realize that you don't need all the new fancy gizmos to survive or be happy.  You can live quite well and more stress-free without them.  Why do people "need" big fancy homes they can't afford.  All you really need is a warm, comfortable place to relax and spend time with the ones you love.  Family, not possessions, is what it is all about.
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kathyp
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« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2010, 01:59:17 PM »

i  have seen poverty around the world.   i have been/lived in some of the most backward places in the US.  we do not have poverty in the US that in any way compares to what the world has.  we don't have disease, starvation, or lack of housing as they do in other countries.

and why do we feel that poverty is a bad thing?  when we were young and starting out, we had nothing.  it was a struggle to pay bills, put food on the table, and clothes on our back. the heat was down, or off.  we dressed out of goodwill and ate out of the dented can store and kept a garden.  we did not have food stamps, heating assistance, or free health care.

 we knew we didn't want to stay where we were.  we both worked two or three jobs at a time so that we could get the education and skills we needed for a better life.  poverty was a great motivator to improve our lives.  no one was going to do it for us.

my renters, on the other hand, have help for everything.  yes, they work, but they do not work toward improvement.  what is their motivation?  almost everything in their lives is free or subsidized. with the money they make, they have satellite TV, high speed internet, and i see the pizza boxes in the trash. did you know you can buy take and bake pizza with food stamps?  their medical and dental is covered by the Oregon health plan.     and the guy smokes.  and they are always late with the rent.

they are very nice people with no future.  do you think they might make better choices if they didn't have my tax dollars to depend on?  i do.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2010, 02:08:33 PM »

Well off is when you have an income that will sustain your way of life with no concern of ever loosing it.  Well off is being so arrogant that you can point the finger at someone else for being in an unfortunate situation and thinking it is their fault for being there.

This isn't the case for me.  I hated the idea of making bankers rich off from my sweat.  But most people truly believed that if a bank would lend them money then they could afford to borrow it.  After all the banks are the experts in finance, right?  Did they get hurt? no way, they had an in to our government so they got bailed out.  Too big to fail, what nonsense.  Don't you think it is amazing they can predict what would happen if they failed but couldn't predict what would happen if they didn't.

So now we have agriculture that is too big to fail.  Each year fertile soil is depleted by the Monsanto's of the world who are also too big to fail.  They are not concerned about wiping out bees because in their minds they will have a chemical solution to improve their bottom line.  People are finally waking up to what is happening to our food source.  The picture is becoming clear that humans were meant to eat real food that comes from real dirt.  Those that do see drastic improvements in health so they want more of this good food.  Whoa! If the Monsanto's of the world are going to survive they need to make this practice illegal.  And that is what is happening right now.









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kathyp
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« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2010, 02:27:09 PM »

gee, i don't know.....do you think i should feel bad about pointing out stupid spending when it's my money they are spending?  i don't.  if they were spending their own money, i would not care what they do with it. oh...forgot....they keep the house so hot that they kids run around in shorts.  but hey, they aren't paying for it, so it's all good.....


should i feel bad about  having worked to achieve a comfortable way of life?  i don't.  in fact, having done it, i believe that anyone can do the same if they want to.  poverty is only a static condition if you wish it to be.  i know that if we lost everything that we own today, we could do it again.

you  more or less made my earlier point.  government stepping in to fix real and imagined problems, and in the process taking more power and our freedom.  the excuse for doing it is less important than the result.  the fact that people buy the excuse, points to the poor education and attention of the public.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2010, 02:39:34 PM »

Man alive Kathy, your getting wetter by the minute.  There is poverty, disease, and starvation everyware in the world even in this country.  I am afraid there will be much larger numbers in the near future.

You know you could double your rent and only rent to the well off and then you wouldn't have to be reminded of those lazy people getting subsidies.  My gut feeling is if they knew how to make their lives better for themeselves they would.
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kathyp
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« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2010, 03:02:03 PM »

depends on how you define poverty, i guess.  find me a starving person in this country.  i  have never seen one. do people skip meals?  yes. do some even go hungry from time to time? yes.  neither of those are the definition  of starvation.   disease?  sure, but not easily preventable disease that is common in other countries.  no bloated bellies, or little kids with flies crawling out of their noses.  no one dies of cholera on the dirt floor of a mud hut.

anyone who could pay double the rent would own, not rent.  these are not impaired people.  in fact, i'd guess that they are both above average in intelligence.  they are nice folks.  they keep the place up.  on that i have no complaints.  my gut feeling is that they'd figure out how to make their lives better if they didn't have the government holding their hand.  they surely would turn the heat down.  what is their motivation to make good choices?  there are not consequences for their bad choices.

unlike other countries, lifetime poverty in this country is about choices.  that's not to say that we won't have bad times.  most of us do.  we also have opportunity to fix things,  to do things differently so that we do not stay in a state of poverty.   
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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