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Author Topic: Some research and testing from Bjorn  (Read 2127 times)
BjornBee
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« on: December 12, 2010, 10:16:04 AM »

I have added a page on the Bjorn website including some results of testing we completed and discussed on another thread.

They can be found at the following link for those interested.

http://www.bjornapiaries.com/researchatbjorns.html

The information is provided to encourage thought, debate, and support. The information provided includes personal assumptions and opinions. It is not being presented as a report for a scientific publication or submitted for peer review.  tongue  With this in mind, I could care less for those who sit on their hands and nitpick others that are trying to make a difference. Clear enough....  Wink

« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 02:48:35 PM by BjornBee » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2010, 10:30:32 AM »

Interesting stuff...thanks for the post.

Scott
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2010, 12:08:01 PM »

First, I assume you mean PPB and not PBB.   My only observation is that it is strange to report a level of atrazine that is below the level of detection.   (4.7 PPB vs 6 PPB)   Similarly, it is strange to report more significant figures in the assay than are indicated in the LOD, especially when the level measured is so close to the LOD.  It means that the background noise is a large fraction of the reported value, so how can you have two significant figures.

These criticisms are addressed to the folks who did the assays for you, but you should be aware that there are some red flags here.
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BjornBee
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« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2010, 12:33:23 PM »

Frameshift,

Yes that should be PPB. Thank you for the heads up.
I got it corrected.
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T Beek
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« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2010, 12:36:58 PM »

Much appreciated data.  Thanks for your efforts and....mmm...your analysis of nit-picking, hand-sitters, those little devils.

thomas
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« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2010, 02:11:22 PM »

It is amazing to look at just how many chemicals are brought into the hive.   And DDT, still?  (I know it don't break down.)
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T Beek
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« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2010, 02:27:42 PM »

Although illegal for decades DDT is still used throughout the world, including the US, imported illegally from many third world Nations where its use hasn't been banned.  Its still a profitable enterprize.

thomas
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BjornBee
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« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2010, 02:39:43 PM »

It is amazing to look at just how many chemicals are brought into the hive.   And DDT, still?  (I know it don't break down.)

T Beek is correct.

The DDT was not found in pollen collected in the states.

It was found in the pollen sample from China.

We manufacture and ship boatloads of DDT to other countries that still use it. Not sure about importing the stuff back into the states for illegal use. But it does seem we import it in the products we buy from overseas.  Wink
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rdy-b
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« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2010, 02:55:49 PM »

 phenothrin-residuals-sprayed for mosquito
Residual efficacy of field-applied permethrin, d-phenothrin, and resmethrin on plant foliage against adult mosquitoes.
A O J Amoo, Rui-De Xue, W A Qualls, B P Quinn, U R Bernier
Anastasia Mosquito Control District, 500 Old Beach Road, St. Augustine, FL 32085, USA.
Backpack sprayer applications of permethrin, d-phenothrin, and resmethrin to vegetation and plants at Anastasia Island, St. Augustine, FL, were evaluated for duration of residual efficacy against adult mosquitoes. All treatments produced 100% mortality (24 h) of mosquitoes in test cages placed within the vegetation. At 48 h and 1 wk posttreatment, insecticide treatments resulted in 70-100% reduction of adult mosquitoes caught by Centers for Disease Control and Prevention traps baited with 1-octen-3-ol. Insecticide residues in excised leaves from both treated and control areas of the study sites were evaluated against adult female Culex quinquefasciatus by laboratory bioassay. Permethrin produced 90% mortality up to 1 wk postapplication. Both d-phenothrin and resmethrin produced nearly this level of mortality for a much shorter duration of <48 h postapplication, with residual effects dropping significantly thereafter. Average insecticide concentrations in leaves were quantified by gas chromatography/mass spectroscopy, and some correlation was observed between chemical and biological results.
Keywords: permethrin; mosquitoe; adult mosquitoe; against adult; foliage; insecticide; plant; residual; backpack; adult; vegetation; produc mortality; against; mortality; sprayer;
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T Beek
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« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2010, 03:09:15 PM »

We're several miles from the nearest farm or town, but just two miles, as the bees fly, from RR Tracks which does cause us some concern.  It seems the Railroad can do anything, spray anything they want, at least around here, tourism, logging and trains are still Kings.  All three take their individual wacks on our living forest, but we're never quite sure what the railroad is up to.

thomas
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AllenF
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« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2010, 04:33:34 PM »

Quick search says that DDT is only used in 2 countries now, India and North Korea. 
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BjornBee
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« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2010, 04:55:17 PM »

Quick search says that DDT is only used in 2 countries now, India and North Korea. 

 lau

And by international treaty, smoking weed in Amsterdam is illegal.  Wink
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« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2010, 05:06:17 PM »

I am way sure there are more people in the world growing weed than are manufacturing DDT.   Wink
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T Beek
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« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2010, 05:07:08 PM »

They're just the ones who admit it or have been caught.  Its much more in use, including US.  If you keep searching you'find its being used along the Rio-Grand (Mexican side) and many points south (where much of our food comes from), along w/ other dioxin laden defolients (and worse) used to keep specific greenery at bay.  A lot is still made right here in America AND used, just not as widespread as when us boomers were kids.  It doesn't surprise me at all that its found in our honeybee hives, along with the hundred or so other harmful chemicals.  Although millions are spent to allegedly protect life/us from such hazzard its pretty much a losing battle when the foxes are guarding the henhouse.  There's no such thing as getting away from it any more.

thomas
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BjornBee
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« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2010, 05:11:34 PM »

I am way sure there are more people in the world growing weed than are manufacturing DDT.   Wink

I agree.   Wink

You don't need to look very far. They make DDT in New Jersey.  Wink

My previous comment had nothing to do with the amount of makers of anything. It was an example of laws, even international treaties banning a substance, and yet reality is that it is used, openly seen, and nothing done to prevent it's use.

Many countries say for whatever reason they do not use DDT. Many do however use it.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2010, 05:15:11 PM »

First, I assume you mean PPB and not PBB.   My only observation is that it is strange to report a level of atrazine that is below the level of detection.   (4.7 PPB vs 6 PPB)   Similarly, it is strange to report more significant figures in the assay than are indicated in the LOD, especially when the level measured is so close to the LOD.  It means that the background noise is a large fraction of the reported value, so how can you have two significant figures.

These criticisms are addressed to the folks who did the assays for you, but you should be aware that there are some red flags here.
     what about LOD --is this question frameshift brought up of merit--is it typo
              numbers below LOD are they acurate-RDY-B
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BjornBee
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« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2010, 05:28:27 PM »

First, I assume you mean PPB and not PBB.   My only observation is that it is strange to report a level of atrazine that is below the level of detection.   (4.7 PPB vs 6 PPB)   Similarly, it is strange to report more significant figures in the assay than are indicated in the LOD, especially when the level measured is so close to the LOD.  It means that the background noise is a large fraction of the reported value, so how can you have two significant figures.

These criticisms are addressed to the folks who did the assays for you, but you should be aware that there are some red flags here.
     what about LOD --is this question frameshift brought up of merit--is it typo
              numbers below LOD are they acurate-RDY-B

I have no clue.
This is the report that was issued to me. It is also the report that I have seen in regards to other CCD testing. What the LOD may mean, I think I know, but until I verify it, I will not post it. Let me get back to you on this.  Wink



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BjornBee
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« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2010, 10:10:33 AM »

I spoke to the Chemist in Charge who did the actual testing. From that conversation, I found out the following.

The LOD changes depending on the samples and type of testing being conducted. It is also set depending on the amount of testing in a given period of time in regards to equipment cleaning and calibration.

The LOD is also set based on the "dirtiness" of the samples being tested. It can also be changed due to the difficulty on finding and identifying certain chemicals by their footprint. Simply put, some are easier to identify than others.

The LOD was set based on the quality of the samples sent in for all of the CCD tested samples, numbering several hundred. Some comb and pollen samples were very dirty, while others are very clean. The LOD is the number that is set that nothing might be found, due to the difficulty of the sample, or the lack of parts to isolate.

When you see a PPB lower than the LOD, it indicates a clean sample where the testing equipment was able to detect chemicals at lower than normal testing parameters. If that happens, they flag that listing, and use qualifiers and fingerprint methods and a matrix to verify the correctness of the detection. Simply put...if you see 4.7 of a certain chemical with a LOD of 6, you can be assured that this chemical was present at that level.

With extreme dirty samples, or a situation where the chemical is of poor quality, you may need a certain level of detection to have results. With a low LOD of 6, and a found source of 4.7, this would be normal of a clean sample being testing with little dirt and other substances.

We also talked about the levels involved and what he had seen through all the testing he has conducted. And even the Phenothrin level in my own trapped pollen, it would be considered a very minuscule amount. Certainly nothing that would kill bees. But with synergy effect and sub-lethal effects not being fully known, we just can not say for sure when we speak of multiple chemicals.

You should note that LOD for both fluvalinate and coumophos is 1. This means the chemical is very easy to detect even with dirty samples. a true reading is a given. So no fluvalinate or coumophos was present.

Got all that?  Wink

I wish the chemist from North Carolina lived closer. I could certainly pick his brain over a  few beers each week. (I need to drink two more beers to complete my first 6-pack this year  grin ) Very interesting chat and full of good advice.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 10:43:27 AM by BjornBee » Logged

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rdy-b
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« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2010, 02:37:20 PM »

well thats good Information-all around Id say-cheers- cheesy-RDY-B
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BjornBee
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« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2010, 12:48:33 PM »

well thats good Information-all around Id say-cheers- cheesy-RDY-B

Thank you RDY-B.

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