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Author Topic: humans, part of the natural world or seperate?  (Read 6435 times)
iddee
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« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2010, 09:16:14 AM »

Good post, scads. I'm betting he eats veggies and/or meats killed by humans, too.

Shame, Shame, Shame....
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kathyp
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« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2010, 11:38:57 AM »

man has two impulses.  survival and procreation.  man is different from animals in that he can rationalize.  man understands that controls are needed.  controls are provided by belief systems and/or government.  since governments are run by men, i rather prefer a leaning toward belief system.

bad things happen.  we do bad things.  we learn from them and we need to get over them.  man takes what he wants because he's at the top of the food chain.  as we take, we learn the limits of that taking and we learn how to mitigate the consequences of that taking. 

logging is a good example and i don't mind going there grin.  we used to log with  no consideration to replanting.  as the population grew, and  more wood was needed, we realized that we needed to replant.  trees are a crop like any other, and when tended, it will produce forever.  on the other hand, those old clear cuts are full of life.  they provide grassy area that would not otherwise exist, and feed game animals that we eat.  as the forest spontaneously regrows in those spots, it is  healthy and has a variety of trees and vegetation not found in the replanted logging areas.

all creatures use their environment.  only man considers the impact of that use.  some twitchy people consider use, to be destruction.  other reasonable people consider  it to  be part of life and look for ways to mitigate the impact of that use.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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T Beek
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« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2010, 02:30:58 PM »

 :roll:Comparing humans to beaver?  Are you kidding? 

And yeah, There's beaver dens within 100 yards from my back door.  I watch them from my tree stand, where I can also see my bee hives.  Very entertaining, but distructive?  That's Like comparing apples and ....... a light bulb. 

 Leave the beaver alone.   They can't respond to such acusations Smiley.......Although there was the year we lost over fifty oaks due to flooding.......but hey, we had fire wood for two years.
 
thomas
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« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2010, 03:13:04 PM »

we ARE nature - we evolved/were created along with the rest of the fish and maggots.
I think I would be happy to replace the word "stewardship" with "responsibility" because even though we're basically a naturally occuring creature, we have thumbs, freewill (choosing our nature does separate us from the animals), the property of self-awareness (an uncertainty in the rest of the animal kingdom), and the ability to plan and do something never done before. ("IMO")
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Scadsobees
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« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2010, 04:08:04 PM »

Really, earth is going to be scorched out of existence anyway, why does the universe or anything care if we do it a few (relative) years sooner?
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Rick
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« Reply #45 on: December 15, 2010, 04:15:09 PM »

Do you know why all those space alien UFOs have never made contact?


They never found intelligent life here.  rolleyes
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kathyp
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« Reply #46 on: December 15, 2010, 04:25:24 PM »

http://www.examiner.com/ufo-in-canada/3-very-large-objects-space-flying-to-earth
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #47 on: December 15, 2010, 06:35:34 PM »

Quote
Do you know why all those space alien UFOs have never made contact?


They never found intelligent life here.

I'm not sure about that.  My cow is pretty smart.  Every morning she waits for me to come and milk her, and I do (you see I am well trained).  I can put her into a patch of new pasture and she can figure out what is best for her to eat (humans don't seem to be to good at knowing what is healthy).  She hasn't quite mastered the birth control thing, but I guess from a species point of view, having lots of babies seems like a good idea.

Maybe I'll ask her if she has seen any UFO's  Wink
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Keith13
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« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2010, 08:48:11 PM »

For better or worse man is the dominant species. We crawled out of the primordial ooze grew opposable thumbs and opened a Starbucks while bulldozing the rainforest. So, like it or not we will be here until we kill ourselves or destroy ourselves. There is not much competition left here on earth

Keith
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hardwood
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« Reply #49 on: December 16, 2010, 09:47:33 PM »

Cue the aliens! (the E.T. type, not the Mexicans grin )

Scott
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luvin honey
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« Reply #50 on: December 28, 2010, 06:29:27 PM »

I see your point BigBear.  I've been through some of the same.  Being a hunter and an outdoorsman, I tend to view myself as just another predator.  When criticized for being a hunter, I'm baffled.  All of my ancestors as far back as I can find were hunters, yet the typical anti-hunter thinks that it's ok for a coyote to hunt because it's natural for them, but not for me.  I've been camping with those are into the "take only pictures" philosophy and frankly it baffles me.  I tend to eat the mushrooms and berries and herbs.  If I try to identify a plant, I pick a leaf and crush it to smell it.  The idea of not leaving the path and not picking anything is absurd to me...  I view myself as part of the rest of nature, not above it.  I believe my responsibility is to treat everything and everyone with respect.

I agree with this.

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luvin honey
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« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2010, 06:30:14 PM »

And although I agree with both of you in theory, if you were to come across a number of carcasses with only the antlers removed, I think you both would be wishing for a little stewardship, maybe even a bit of government interference.
And this. Not everyone agrees on what constitutes respect, stewardship or responsible use of the earth.
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The pedigree of honey
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---Emily Dickinson
luvin honey
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« Reply #52 on: December 28, 2010, 06:39:53 PM »

:roll:Comparing humans to beaver?  Are you kidding? 

And yeah, There's beaver dens within 100 yards from my back door.  I watch them from my tree stand, where I can also see my bee hives.  Very entertaining, but distructive?  That's Like comparing apples and ....... a light bulb. 

 Leave the beaver alone.   They can't respond to such acusations Smiley.......Although there was the year we lost over fifty oaks due to flooding.......but hey, we had fire wood for two years.
 
thomas
I don't think anyone is saying beavers caused global climate change. I think the point is that "destructive" is in the eye of the beholder. I'm pretty much a liberal tree hugger and don't mind saying so. It was good for me to get a perspective change when bears tore apart my hives this year. I love the thought of bears in our parts. The reality not so much. We are all interconnected. We all impact each other. Some of it's good (luckily for the bear, I had unnatural hives for its pleasure), some of it not so good (unluckily for me, the bear has a great nose!)

I think humans out of self-preservation and self-respect should minimize their impacts as much as possible. If I NEVER haul wood, need to pull heavy loads or drive over rough terrain, I don't believe I need a huge gas-guzzling pickup truck or Hummer. I think I can walk anywhere up to 6 miles quite easily, bike when reasonable, etc. But, I clothe myself, own a vehicle, have a house much larger than I need ("need" about 100 sq feet), heat my home, feed my children (and have 2 of them), so I am also definitely impacting the planet, taking habitat away from animals and creating a "carbon footprint." I don't live in guilt over this, but I do feed the birds Cheesy
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The pedigree of honey
Does not concern the bee;
A clover, any time, to him
Is aristocracy.
---Emily Dickinson
T Beek
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« Reply #53 on: December 29, 2010, 11:24:34 AM »

luvin honey :-*All I'm saying is that its a "poor comparison."  Humans and Beaver; they're not even close (a Kamodo Dragon would be better, but even that misses the mark). 

I still feel that most people are very disconnected from and fearfull of nature, and so while one could argue that we are part of the natural world, we are still very seperate from it.  And the divide grows every day.

thomas
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