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Author Topic: Toxins in foundation  (Read 8237 times)

Offline BjornBee

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Re: Toxins in foundation
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2010, 10:18:03 AM »
Excellent info.  Thanks Michael.  HOpe this quiets some of the condesending tone.  Beeks seeking to do right by their bees don't need attacks they need info from rational minds.  I was beginning to feel overwhelmed waiting for another voice to join the discussion.

thomas

Hey T,
So I don't need to see the whole video, at what point did Maryann state that foundation was tainting bees?

I noticed Mike B posted this less than 35 minutes before you make reference that this was a good to see. The video is over 90 minutes long.

Save me the time and let me know at what point she claimed this, so I (and others also) don't have to see an hour and a half long video.

I know I have seem Maryann speak many times. So most of this would be repeated stuff. I however have never heard of a research study, or heard her claim foundation was tainting bees.

Thanks in advance.
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Offline BjornBee

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Re: Toxins in foundation
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2010, 10:26:49 AM »
The toxicity of fluvalinate and coumaphos are well documented.  I'm surprised to hear such denials.


What denials are you talking about?

Nobody is suggesting that these chemicals are not harmful to bees. What is being questioned is whether foundation is tainting bees.

Show me where on the video or a study that has shown this to be true. I personally have never heard a claim or study that was done showing foundation was harmful. If there was, you would think someone could produce it. Please do.

Thank you.

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Offline T Beek

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Re: Toxins in foundation
« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2010, 10:39:44 AM »
Its not the first time I've seen it.  Had in a saved file from awhile ago.  Please take the time.

Why would you not take the time?  I don't believe you're not looking for an argument.  Sorry BjornBee.

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Offline Acebird

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Re: Toxins in foundation
« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2010, 10:45:14 AM »
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the rare sugar/syrup feeding as needed.

And the source? :?

Sugar is not grown in this country,  Corn is owned by Monsanto and soon to be beets.  Did you test the food source first?

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The reason I paid for my own testing was because I don't trust everything I read.

I also tested commercial pollen on the market a few years back. Pollen being sold through large supply warehouses without it being divulged that it came from China. The stuff was laced with DDT and fluvilanate at levels that would make your head spin. That of course nobody wanted to touch with a ten foot poll, and was quickly brushed under the rug.

That is too bad.  But it is understandable.  We have the same problem in our own food source.  The secracy of what is in it.  No person or mega corporation has ever tried to keep something good a secret.  So that tells me what is behind the secrete.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Toxins in foundation
« Reply #44 on: December 10, 2010, 10:55:12 AM »
Why would you not take the time?

I would like to view the movie full screen.  Do you have a link where I can download the file?  If I find the area of concern I can point out the footage counter.
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Re: Toxins in foundation
« Reply #45 on: December 10, 2010, 10:59:03 AM »
you are correct...it is an assumption that fluvalinate and coumaphos present in foundation wax has any impact at all on the bees.  it is also true that several studies found afb spores present in foundation do not infect bees.

yet....

(if i am reading your post correctly) you have tested pollen from bees placed on commercial foundation?
was the foundation tested?  was the foundation contaminated?
is it a reasonable assumption that if the fluvalinate/coumaphos isn't found in trapped pollen that it isn't affecting the bees?

it would be interesting (if one knew the level of contamination of a particular batch of foundation) to test bees drawing out the foundation, brood being raised in the foundation, and cappings from honeycomb built on such foundation..

again, i don't know the extent of your tests, so i can't comment further.  if you would like to make the data from the tested chinese pollen available, i'd be happy to host it (in fact i'd like to).

deknow

Offline BjornBee

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Re: Toxins in foundation
« Reply #46 on: December 10, 2010, 11:41:11 AM »
deknow,

Ah...some sound reasoning.  ;)

I previously posted in this thread I did not test for the levels in the foundation. I assumed that all foundation was tainted, or I was lucky enough to buy the only foundation on earth void of chemicals. I do know that all previous foundation tested did have some chemicals on some level. So I found reestablishing this fact, or the levels, a waste of my limited resources.

Yes, I tested pollen collected from bees on wax foundation. No beekeeper pesticide or chemicals were found. That, as you commented, does not prove there are no effects. Just simply that not one part per billion was transferred over to the bees. At that level, I'll probably also assume that no damage is being done based on simply reasoning.

It would be interesting to find out the answers to some of your other questions. I simply do not have the staff and resources of a university. I do not know of any testing of each item prior to the actual testing.

I took what was told to be tainted wax foundation (without testing for levels as ALL foundation has chemicals), clean bees (confirmed by the lack of anything found in the testing), and then testing the transfer of chemicals after the fact. And nothing was found. Clean bees. No tainting. That is far as I got.

I did find other chemicals being brought into the hive. But no fluvalinate or coumophos.

What I have a problem is the open assumption that because foundation has been found to have chemicals, that foundation is harmful or tainting bees. And to date, we have no clear testing or proof of this. I just did not find this to be the case.

Not sure what you mean by "hosting".
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Toxins in foundation
« Reply #47 on: December 10, 2010, 12:38:33 PM »
>Save me the time and let me know at what point she claimed this

As I said:
>And of course her talk about half way through:

which might explain:
>35 minutes before you make reference


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Re: Toxins in foundation
« Reply #48 on: December 10, 2010, 12:45:55 PM »
...That, as you commented, does not prove there are no effects. Just simply that not one part per billion was transferred over to the bees.  At that level, I'll probably also assume that no damage is being done based on simply reasoning.
mmm, i think it means that no fluvalinate or coumaphos is transfered to the bees in such a way as to express as one part per billion in pollen.  i think your above reasoning if flawed.  in any case, equating results from pollen tests to levels in bees, effects on bees/brood, and especially without determining what was in the foundation (which is what you were testing).  it's an interesting test you did, and the data is valid and very interesting when compared with the penn state data (you seem to show that "clean bees" don't produce trapped pollen with more than 1ppb fluvalinate and coumaphos).  how did your results compare with the penn state data on agricultural pesticides?

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I took what was told to be tainted wax foundation
who told you the foundation you started with was tainted with fluvalinate and coumaphos?  the penn state tests looked at very few foundation samples, certainly not enough to make an assumption that the foundation you used was tainted in the ways you assumed it to be tainted.  

this is the "foundation" of your interpretation of your results, and it doesn't hold up.  you seem to try and make it someone elses mistake (whomever "told you" your or all foundation is contaminated.....but no one who's word you would take on such a matter ever told you this).  you claim to be testing:
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the transfer of chemicals after the fact.
...but you clearly did not establish if or what chemicals were present to transfer before the fact.  transfer of what?

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What I have a problem is the open assumption that because foundation has been found to have chemicals, that foundation is harmful or tainting bees. And to date, we have no clear testing or proof of this.
...and we should assume that rearing brood in comb from contaminated foundation (contaminated with substances that we know have a negative effect on brood and fertility) has no negative effect?  it isn't a reasonable concern for those that do not want to use fluvalinate and coumaphos in their hives because of the known and proven negative effects that these substances can come in with foundation?

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I just did not find this to be the case.
you did not test what you claim to have tested.

deknow

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Not sure what you mean by "hosting".
make it available online and point people to it...either with your credits, or anonymously (if you don't want to get a bad reputation) :)  i'd point people to it if you put it up on your site as well.

Offline Scadsobees

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Re: Toxins in foundation
« Reply #49 on: December 10, 2010, 02:25:18 PM »

 Much to our surprise, a local bee master tasted our honey and ADMITTED it tasted better than his.  He doesn't use foundation and we do if you are keeping track.  Chemicals have taste.  Anyone that eats organic food can attest to the difference between organically grown and not organically grown with amazing accuracy.

Um...I think that my honey in the spring tastes better than my honey in the summer, and sometimes in between it tastes better or worse.  And it tastes better from the comb than it does from the bucket 3 months later.  That is a)very subjective and b) mostly due to variations in flora in the immediate vicinity and time. (I don't apply much chems, although I'm surrounded by lawns).  I've tasted awful organic food and wonderful food that has had pesticides applied to keep the bugs away.

Does anybody know the effects of heating wax and bleaching wax?  Dangerous compounds can form from those two activities that could be every bit as toxic to the bees as coumaphos and fluovinate!!



Rick

Offline Hethen57

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Re: Toxins in foundation
« Reply #50 on: December 10, 2010, 02:42:24 PM »
I'm still waiting for all of the toxins in my wax foundation to kill the tiny Varroa mites that seem to thrive and reproduce while while being encapsulated in it  :-D
-Mike

Offline BjornBee

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Re: Toxins in foundation
« Reply #51 on: December 10, 2010, 04:04:57 PM »
 :?
« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 04:20:38 PM by BjornBee »
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Toxins in foundation
« Reply #52 on: December 10, 2010, 04:28:39 PM »
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Um...I think that my honey in the spring tastes better than my honey in the summer, and sometimes in between it tastes better or worse.  And it tastes better from the comb than it does from the bucket 3 months later.  That is a)very subjective and b) mostly due to variations in flora in the immediate vicinity and time.

This honey was harvested in late fall when we winterized so it is a result of the whole seasons collections.  Of course it is subjective, all taste tests are.  Ah yeah that's my point if you give the bees flowers that don't have harmful chemicals there is less of a chance that harmful chemicals will be in the honey they make.

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I've tasted awful organic food and wonderful food that has had pesticides applied to keep the bugs away.

You think the pesticides improved the taste?  :?
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Offline D Coates

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Re: Toxins in foundation
« Reply #53 on: December 10, 2010, 04:37:40 PM »
Bjornbee,?

Where'd you go?  Don't leave us hanging here...  a a what?  Did your head explode? ;)  Mine is trying as I've been reading this.  Try as you might some folks are simply convinced that there's a human/big business created boogy man behind every corner for just about anything.  

Trying to convince them otherwise is like trying to bathe a cat.  You get wet and exhausted.  The cat? well, stays a cat.

Acebird, Pesticides can improve the taste.  Ever eaten corn with worms in it?
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Toxins in foundation
« Reply #54 on: December 10, 2010, 05:06:29 PM »
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Acebird, Pesticides can improve the taste.  Ever eaten corn with worms in it?

I can see where this is going.  The answer is yes.  Most sensible people will eat around them because what they leave is far Superior to anthing that doesn't have them.  You are judging taste based on looks.  The bugs tell you the food is safe.  The absence of bugs tells you it is not safe.  Bugs are part of our world and the more we try to eliminate them the more damage we do to ourselves.  It just happens at a later date.
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Offline BjornBee

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Re: Toxins in foundation
« Reply #55 on: December 10, 2010, 05:46:45 PM »
Bjornbee,?

Where'd you go?  Don't leave us hanging here...  a a what?  Did your head explode? ;)  

Made me smile...... :lol:

I listened too Maryann Frazier's complete talk again that MB posted.  :-P

I had too since nobody could pinpoint when she made a statement about foundation killing or harming bees.

Heard that about 6 times now.

Interesting, Maryann stated that every foundation sample at that time tested, had chemicals. Sorry deknow, I know you will nitpick all day since I did not test my foundation prior to testing. I openly stated such but I expect the criticism. The talk that MB posted is dated. But I have heard her state since then that every sample of foundation has been found with chemicals. You really think some company since then has been found clean, and yet we have not heard about it. That is funny. 

For the record....NOT ONE TIME in the video was there a comment about a test, or proof that bees were being contaminated from foundation. She repeated what I have been saying. There are chemicals. But nobody to date has tested to prove this.

I do like how she beats around the bush that "Beekeepers could of or might have been using illegal chems". Yeah, right. I seen it for three years as an inspector. And anybody who knows anything, knows taktic (sp?) and Mavrick was being poured on commercial hives for years.

Deknow, I think I will post those reports on my website. Maryann mentions a "sample of pollen" from China in her talk, and I'm thinking this was one of the samples I sent in and paid for. The timing is right. But I'll need to visit the farm and bring them up to the house over the weekend.

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Offline D Coates

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Re: Toxins in foundation
« Reply #56 on: December 10, 2010, 05:56:46 PM »
The bugs tell you the food is safe.  The absence of bugs tells you it is not safe.

So road kill is safe to eat?  Come on, not all bugs are good and not all chemicals are bad.  You can't make blanket statements like that.  Ever bitten into a peach with fruit fly maggots in it?  I have, pretty gross.  How about , broccoli with aphids and caterpillars after a steaming?  Embarrassing with dinner guests.

Crap, I'm trying to bathe a cat...  :-P
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Offline VolunteerK9

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Re: Toxins in foundation
« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2010, 05:59:36 PM »
 :pop:

Offline edward

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Re: Toxins in foundation
« Reply #58 on: December 10, 2010, 06:48:32 PM »
I can see where this is going.  The answer is yes.  Most sensible people will eat around them because what they leave is far Superior to anthing that doesn't have them.  You are judging taste based on looks.  The bugs tell you the food is safe.  The absence of bugs tells you it is not safe.  Bugs are part of our world and the more we try to eliminate them the more damage we do to ourselves.  It just happens at a later date.

 :lau: :lau: :lau: chuckle chuckle :lau: :lau: :lau: :lau:

You hit a home run  ;)

When the bugs go in the food is good  :lol:

When they leave not so  :-X good  :-X , Kinda like some house guests


mvh edward  :-P

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Re: Toxins in foundation
« Reply #59 on: December 10, 2010, 09:02:18 PM »
Interesting, Maryann stated that every foundation sample at that time tested, had chemicals.
yes.  all 5 or 6 samples had fluvalinate and coumaphos.

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Sorry deknow, I know you will nitpick all day since I did not test my foundation prior to testing. I openly stated such but I expect the criticism.
errrr, nitpick?  you are claiming to have tested for pesticide transfer from foundation to bees by using foundation with unknown status wrt to contamination and measuring contamination in the pollen.  i think it's great that you are running tests...but you have to be careful about what you are measuring and what you are assuming.

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But I have heard her state since then that every sample of foundation has been found with chemicals. You really think some company since then has been found clean, and yet we have not heard about it. That is funny.
yes, they had 1 sample each from 5 or 6 sources....5 or 6 samples, all sourced at the same time.  since that time, all of the suppliers have been appraised of the test results...i expect they are trying to improve things, don't you?

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For the record....NOT ONE TIME in the video was there a comment about a test, or proof that bees were being contaminated from foundation. She repeated what I have been saying. There are chemicals. But nobody to date has tested to prove this.
no.  you have been saying that the levels of miticides found in commercial foundation don't affect the bees.  maryann said no such thing.

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Deknow, I think I will post those reports on my website. Maryann mentions a "sample of pollen" from China in her talk, and I'm thinking this was one of the samples I sent in and paid for. The timing is right. But I'll need to visit the farm and bring them up to the house over the weekend.
i look forward to seeing this!

deknow