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Author Topic: Toxins in foundation  (Read 6565 times)
Bee-Bop
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« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2010, 01:15:33 PM »

A short note;
Chemicals have been in our water,food supply chain for years & years, since man has been on earth.
It has only been in recent years that science has the ability to find traces of chemicals in
the millions and billion's of a part.

If you get a chance take a tour of a laboratory, simply unbelievable what they can see.

Bee-Bop
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« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2010, 01:26:07 PM »

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honey supers i am using plastic frames that i coat with white wax cappings or wax bought from a trustable colleague that is certified varoa and pesticide free.

plastic is a petroleum product.  many types of plastic give off toxins when they are heated. (sun on a hive?) 

if one cig can kill, what about living in a city, a valley, etc?  all that toxic air that you city folks breath.  it's a wonder you are not all dead!!
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« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2010, 02:43:07 PM »

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Thankfully bee-smoker smoke is safe!

He, he, and how do you know that? Wink

You can't claim the honey is pesticide free either unless it is tested for every pesticide known to man.  The only thing you can do is give your bees a large enough garden area in close proximity to the hive where you don't use chemicals.  I would be very interested in seeing some data on how much area per hive is required to encourage the bees not to travel further then your controlled area.
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Bee-Bop
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« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2010, 02:55:34 PM »


To minimize the chance of contamination in the honey supers i am using plastic frames that i coat with white wax cappings or wax bought from a trustable colleague that is certified varoa and pesticide free.


I was going to ask  " who/what was necessary to get this type of certification ? " ;

Evidently you must live in Denmark, so I won't ask.

Bee-Bop
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Acebird
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« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2010, 03:32:12 PM »

http://www.beeculture.com/storycms/index.cfm?cat=Story&recordID=626

I don't know how I got to this site but for those that like research...
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Bee-Bop
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« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2010, 06:05:53 PM »

http://www.beeculture.com/storycms/index.cfm?cat=Story&recordID=626

I don't know how I got to this site but for those that like research...


Here is a lot more college research ;

http://entweb.clemson.edu/pesticid/Issues/bees.htm

Getting technical now !

Bee-Bop
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BjornBee
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« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2010, 06:12:49 PM »

Oh come on guys.

Who has time to read through a page list of various links.

How about just directing us to the one that shows commercial foundation is killing or harming bees.

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Cascadebee
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« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2010, 07:28:27 PM »

Toxin levels don't have to be extreme or acute to have negative effects on animals. Sublethal effects alter foraging behaviors, increase susceptibility to disease, etc, etc. Plenty of studies on that Bjorn. Wax residues are a serious problem when you consider overall hive health and cumulative exposure. Therefore a residue problem could manifest in unexpected ways like  persistent nosema or poor honey production.
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BjornBee
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« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2010, 07:38:52 PM »

Toxin levels don't have to be extreme or acute to have negative effects on animals. Sublethal effects alter foraging behaviors, increase susceptibility to disease, etc, etc. Plenty of studies on that Bjorn. Wax residues are a serious problem when you consider overall hive health and cumulative exposure. Therefore a residue problem could manifest in unexpected ways like  persistent nosema or poor honey production.

That may be true. But just because it does not take much to impact one thing or another, can not be applied across the board, claiming death and harm to every item out there that happens to be containing some level of chemicals. If that is the bar, everything in our society would be labeled as a killer. And we all know this not to be true.

We went from discussing the urban legend being repeated about "extreme level" of chemicals in foundation, (To which nobody has defined extreme) to suggesting foundation is killing or harmful to bees. And not one study has shown this. In fact, I would think if it was an issue, one of the many researchers doing CCD research would of stated so. Nobody had any basis or proof that small amounts of found encapsulated chemicals in wax foundation is harming bees. Period. And now to support this position, rationalized studies that are off topic, vague comments, and wishful thinking has taken over.
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David McLeod
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« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2010, 09:48:51 PM »

Actually, I would be more concerned with "cross contamination" than just simple foundation made from cappings. How are the cappings melted and on what equipment. How is it processed and stored. The original source of cappings is going to be your purest wax, barring what is tracked into the hive by foragers of course. But if the beek, the processor, the assembler allows the cappings/foundation to come into contact either directly or indirectly through dirty equipment, mixing with slum gum/brood comb, failure to store wax and chemicals seperately and you have a problem.
Sanitation can go a long way so it behooves us to pay attention to what we do.
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edward
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« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2010, 10:04:35 PM »

 Wink IF YOU DRINK TO MUCH WATER YOU CAN DIE  Wink

I live in Sweden , and i am sorry to say that in my area we have varoa  angry

My colleague lives i an area that does not have varoa "yet"

It has just past my area about seven years ago , and continues north.

Also from Finland in the north it is heading south.  angry

The zones that do not have varoa yet have restrictions in place so you are not aloud to transport bees from a varoa area into that zone. And I don't think any one wants to bee known as the bee keeper that tainted a particular area. evil

The colleague in question is a certified Green bee keeper , This means that he can't use chemicals in his hives , also he has to only have eco wax in his hives , he has to feed his bees with ecological sugar (2x the normal price) , if he smokes his hives he has to use natural materials , also his hives must bee of 51% natural materials , He must document everything + 3 years trail period bee fore certification ,  and the list goes on and on and on and on... .... ... .. ........  .....

Fore this privilege he has to pay a hefty fee to bee a part of the ecological honey brand label.

The upside is that he can sell his honey as Eco friendly and ask a higher price from the consumers that want to pay more fore ecological products

mvh edward  tongue
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edward
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« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2010, 10:08:31 PM »

Its almost impossible to 100% sure about anything ,

But that doesn't mean we should give up and not try to do the best for our bees and the honey we produce.  Wink


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BjornBee
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« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2010, 07:36:58 AM »

Its almost impossible to 100% sure about anything ,

But that doesn't mean we should give up and not try to do the best for our bees and the honey we produce.  Wink


mvh edward  tongue

I agree.

Unfortunately, we have many that will take a simply concept of trying to do things better, and back up their narrow minded approach of beekeeping, and will distort truth, common sense, and integrity, to do so.

Saying one uses foundationless systems so bees can draw untainted comb, or that bees will be healthier are half truths at best. Nobody can say what is in their bees comb unless they tested it. It could easily be assumed that chemicals in the area of any hive are a more potential risk than what minuscule amount have been found in foundation. But you will find beekeepers blowing out of proportion any suggestions of chemicals in commercial foundation to rationalize their own thoughts, to promote what they are selling, or the concept or beekeeping approach they follow. And yet, time and time again, bees have been found to contaminate their own hives locally, and not one shred of proof has been shown that foundation is harmful.

We just had an article posted about the "Red Bees of Red Hook", showing once again, they will eat, collect, and store anything they can.

Now we just added the suggestion that wax foundation may be a source for cross contamination. Of what? AFB? Some wax is bleached in making foundation. Some is heated. Not sure that does a whole bunch for disease. But not once ion the history of beekeeping as far as I know, has their been a sliver of evidence that foundation transmots AFB or any other disease. And yet, we just had someone make that suggestion and planted that seed in other beekeepers heads. I'm sure some will be adding this to their websites this morning as another justification for one thing or another to promote.

Just because the next guy's stuff was tested and something was found, does not make the finger pointer's stuff any better without testing. But boy, do we have many finger pointers.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2010, 07:42:38 AM »

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCkQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fagriculture.house.gov%2Ftestimony%2F110%2Fh80626%2FFrazier.doc&rct=j&q=maryann%20frazier&ei=Yh4CTY2tL4Odlgfh5Om3CQ&usg=AFQjCNGMbqZaox90JT3L9RNPflDSd-NrlQ&cad=rja

Here is Maryann Frazier's testimony to congress.  Try a search on "foundation" and you'll find quite a bit about the toxins found and their toxicity to bees.  Even some numbers.  Smiley

And of course her talk about half way through:


The toxicity of fluvalinate and coumaphos are well documented.  I'm surprised to hear such denials.

Her research was published and used to be available on the web, and probably is still there, but I don't have the link handy.
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T Beek
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« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2010, 08:14:28 AM »

Excellent info.  Thanks Michael.  HOpe this quiets some of the condesending tone.  Beeks seeking to do right by their bees don't need attacks they need info from rational minds.  I was beginning to feel overwhelmed waiting for another voice to join the discussion.

thomas
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Acebird
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« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2010, 08:23:39 AM »

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It could easily be assumed that chemicals in the area of any hive are a more potential risk than what minuscule amount have been found in foundation.


I agree to the extent that these chemicals tend to increase in the wax over time.  To me that makes an excellent measure of how clean the bees food source is (assuming no chemicals are added).  So yes there are trace chemicals in the foundation but how fast or what rate of increase occurs in the drawn comb?  This would tell you if you have a good or bad organic food source for your honey.  All the clean practices known to man could be negated by the food source.

We got bees to propagate our gardens and the hopes that some honey could be harvested but we didn't count on it.  I can tell you it works, big time.  Much to our surprise, a local bee master tasted our honey and ADMITTED it tasted better than his.  He doesn't use foundation and we do if you are keeping track.  Chemicals have taste.  Anyone that eats organic food can attest to the difference between organically grown and not organically grown with amazing accuracy.
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« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2010, 08:44:33 AM »

a few thoughts on some of the topics brought up here:

1.  absolutely there are all kinds of pollutants, ag chemicals, etc in every hive (jerrry bromenshenk claims to have never tested a pollen sample that didn't have pcbs).  the work done at penn state told us what we already knew...the highest levels of pesticides were those placed directly into the hive by the beekeeper.  in the same study, the highest levels of pesticides found in pollen were those put in the hive by the beekeeper (and transmitted to the pollen one way or another before the pollen enters the hive).

2.  if there is any interest in reducing the amount of chemicals in the hive, the first step, the "low hanging fruit" is to stop putting these things in the hive.  if one is planning not to use fluvalinate and coumaphos in their hives, then bringing them in with foundation makes no sense.

denow
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BjornBee
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« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2010, 09:02:42 AM »

a few thoughts on some of the topics brought up here:

1.  in the same study, the highest levels of pesticides found in pollen were those put in the hive by the beekeeper (and transmitted to the pollen one way or another before the pollen enters the hive).

And yes, for those cases of CCD hives where the chemicals had been used over and over and a full saturation point was achieved, this is true.

That however is apple and oranges. The studies you mention were from bees on comb of hives previously treated by those very same chemicals, or on fully drawn tainted comb.

To assume that this tainting of bees can now be applied to tainted foundation is a leap for sure.

This was the basis of my own paid chemical analysis of bees on foundation and the internal level of chemicals from the bees via pollen collection.

And again....not one part per billion was found. None!

Yes, you will find chemicals in pollen from bees previously treated bees and comb via pollen testing. But they did not test clean bees placed on foundation. So how can you assume any transmition of chemicals from foundation. To make that leap you need to test for it. It never was. And that is why I did it myself. And no transfer was found.

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« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2010, 09:06:38 AM »

Well said deknow.  We agree. For myself, I'll continue to promote foundationless beekkeeping and will refuse to add anything to my hives other than bees and the rare sugar/syrup feeding as needed.

thomas
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« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2010, 09:10:12 AM »

Please keep in mind. I'm not out to debate or argue. I'm just telling you what I have found. The reason I paid for my own testing was because I don't trust everything I read.

I also tested commercial pollen on the market a few years back. Pollen being sold through large supply warehouses without it being divulged that it came from China. The stuff was laced with DDT and fluvilanate at levels that would make your head spin. That of course nobody wanted to touch with a ten foot poll, and was quickly brushed under the rug. Way too much money and way too many toes would be stepped on to actually look into this. But I have the original pollen, unopened samples, test reports, etc.  Wink
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