Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: What is wrong with the idea...  (Read 5444 times)

Offline Acebird

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 955
  • Gender: Male
  • Just getting started
What is wrong with the idea...
« on: December 08, 2010, 03:35:33 PM »
What is wrong with the idea of using 3 medium supers for a hive body instead of 2 deep hive bodies?

If you put a queen extruder screen on the bottom of the hive will it prevent a swarm?  Is there a negative?
Never thought I would do it!

Offline JP

  • The Swarm King
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 11702
  • Gender: Male
  • I like doing cut-outs, but I love catching swarms!
    • JPthebeeman.com
Re: What is wrong with the idea...
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2010, 03:48:54 PM »
There are several beeks on this site that use all medium equipment. I personally use one deep on the bottom, all other boxes are mediums.

I don't use queen excluders, many don't but its personal preference.


...JP
"Good friends are as sweet as honey" Winne the Pooh

My pictures can be viewed at http://picasaweb.google.com/pyxicephalus
and
http://picasaweb.google.com/112138792165178452970

My Youtube user name is JPthebeeman
 My website JPthebeeman.com http://www.jpthebeeman.com/jpthebeeman/

Online kathyp

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 15627
  • Gender: Female
Re: What is wrong with the idea...
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2010, 03:54:45 PM »
Quote
If you put a queen extruder screen on the bottom of the hive will it prevent a swarm?  Is there a negative?

the drones can't get out. 

swarming is the natural inclination of a hive.  there are ways to manage a hive so that swarming is less likely, but i don't know that there is any fool proof way to prevent it, or that it is entirely desirable to prevent all swarming.  it is nice to be able to catch you own swarms!  :-D 
.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Robo

  • Technical
  • Administrator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 6498
  • Gender: Male
  • Beekeep On!
    • Robo's World
Re: What is wrong with the idea...
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2010, 04:02:58 PM »
What is wrong with the idea of using 3 medium supers for a hive body instead of 2 deep hive bodies?
Nothing wrong with it, only draw back is you increase your cost ~30%.

Quote
If you put a queen extruder screen on the bottom of the hive will it prevent a swarm?  Is there a negative?

As Kathy mentioned, the dead drones will clog it up and it will wear out your forager's wings quicker.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 08:57:35 PM by Robo »
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison



Offline Bee-Bop

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 689
  • Gender: Male
Re: What is wrong with the idea...
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2010, 07:45:25 PM »
I use all medium/Illinois boxes, no problem, I winter with 3 mediums the equivalent of 1 and 1/2 deeps.

Mediums are being used by a lot more people it seems, basicaly those who are just starting out as hobbiest and don't plan on expanding agreat deal

The one problem may be finding medium nuc's if you use them, in your area, no problem just a little more work.

Bee-Bop
" If Your not part of the genetic solution of breeding mite-free bees, then You're part of the problem "

Offline Acebird

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 955
  • Gender: Male
  • Just getting started
Re: What is wrong with the idea...
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2010, 08:18:48 PM »
I use all medium/Illinois boxes, no problem, I winter with 3 mediums the equivalent of 1 and 1/2 deeps.

Mediums are being used by a lot more people it seems, basicaly those who are just starting out as hobbiest and don't plan on expanding agreat deal

The one problem may be finding medium nuc's if you use them, in your area, no problem just a little more work.

Bee-Bop


How does that calculate out?  I figured that 3 mediums would be about 1.5 inches taller than 2 deeps.  Is it by cell count?  It wouldn't seem that the empty space between the frames would be that much but maybe it is.



Never thought I would do it!

Offline Bee-Bop

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 689
  • Gender: Male
Re: What is wrong with the idea...
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2010, 08:46:00 PM »
I guess this is the law of averages or something,
For years in the beekeeping world, it has been 2 mediums/Illinois  equal one deep.
Two mediums have the same "frame" bee space dept as 2 deeps, I forgot what it is 5/16 or 3/8 in.

I'm no mathematician and not going to quibble with the old timers when they said 2 mediums equal 1 deep!

Old timers ? I'm 71 and been fooling with these since 1958-59.

Of course what do I know.
Bee-Bop
" If Your not part of the genetic solution of breeding mite-free bees, then You're part of the problem "

Offline Scadsobees

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3198
  • Gender: Male
  • Best use of smileys in a post award.
Re: What is wrong with the idea...
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2010, 08:58:31 PM »
You are correct, 3 mediums are often used instead of 2 deeps.  If you want to get all technical, 3 supers (6 5/8) is bigger than 2 deeps (9 5/8) but then you do end up with an extra frame top and a gap, so I'd guess it would be a wash as far as # cells .

No, placing a queen excluder at the bottom won't stop  a swarm...well, maybe :-D
The biggest problem as mentioned the drones can't get out, and would clog it up to the point that no other bees could get out and it would kill the hive.  And queens do slim down a bit in order to fly, there's a chance she could still get out in the case the excluder didn't get clogged..

Rick
Rick

Offline Jim 134

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2351
  • Gender: Male
    • Franklin County Beekeepers Association
Re: What is wrong with the idea...
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2010, 09:36:07 PM »
For years in the beekeeping world, it has been 2 mediums/Illinois  equal one deep.

 2 Shallow are about the same as 1 deep

I have been use 10 frames 3 medium supers for a hive body  since 1985- now
you"s to use 2 deep 1957-1984
 
 
What do I know  :-P I'm 62 been doing for bees 50+ years



    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 05:25:26 PM by Jim 134 »
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Offline winginit

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 261
  • Gender: Female
Re: What is wrong with the idea...
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2010, 09:46:52 PM »
When I got my first package, I put an excluder on the bottom. Thought it was a SBB. Experienced beekeeper came by 10 days later and asked me what the h**l I was doing. Gulp. But hive was fine and there weren't any dead drones stuck in it (yet). Of course, that was the last time I used that excluder.   :roll:

Online Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 14780
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: What is wrong with the idea...
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2010, 10:27:31 PM »
>What is wrong with the idea of using 3 medium supers for a hive body instead of 2 deep hive bodies?

Nothing.  But I like four eight frame mediums even better...  what you save on back surgery will easily cover the increase in cost.

>If you put a queen extruder screen on the bottom of the hive will it prevent a swarm?  Is there a negative?

It's not workable.  During drone rearing season it will quickly get clogged with drones trying to get out and if they need to replace the queen the virgin will get stuck trying to leave to mate.
Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen

Offline wd

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 541
  • Gender: Male
Re: What is wrong with the idea...
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2010, 01:35:06 AM »
I'll fess up, I have used queen excluders, to prevent a swarm, never! My use has been to keep the queen from moving to an area I don't want her in such as honey. With packages, and comb-less frames, I have made attempts to keep a mated queen from taking off with a wood entrance reducer for no more then 10 days max. How long does it take for drones to emerge with-in the hive?

I'm not using any at present and happy with it but I'm not against their use.

Offline Acebird

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 955
  • Gender: Male
  • Just getting started
Re: What is wrong with the idea...
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2010, 10:25:51 AM »
Sorry all, I am an engineer...
I measured the area of the foundation on both frames.  Two deeps = 272 sq in, where as three mediums = 255 sq in, so that would equate to three mediums = 94% of two deeps.  Close enough for me to be considered equal.

I will not be using queen excluder on the bottom of the hive.  I am looking into adding another hive for next year and I am intrigued with the idea of a tower.  My wife is resisting because she doesn't want to upset the apple cart seeing as how we had such good luck this year with our single hive.  She wants to just get a whole new separate hive if our present hive survives the winter.

I suppose I shouldn't admit that we are not proponents for messing with the bees and refuse to introduce chemicals to the hive for any reason.  So I kind of like the idea of controlling mites the natural way even though it does mean messing with the hive somewhat.

Thanks for all that replied on this.
Never thought I would do it!

Offline Jim 134

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2351
  • Gender: Male
    • Franklin County Beekeepers Association
Re: What is wrong with the idea...
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2010, 05:18:57 PM »
>What is wrong with the idea of using 3 medium supers for a hive body instead of 2 deep hive bodies?

Nothing.  But I like four eight frame mediums even better...  what you save on back surgery will easily cover the increase in cost.


Acebird ....
  
   If you use 8 frame boxes 4 for a hive body  it is 32 frames but the 8 frame will but taller be for you  put on you'r honey  supers
   If you use 10 frame boxes 3 for a hive body  it is 30 frames just my $0.02

   BEE HAPPY Jim :)
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 05:37:13 PM by Jim 134 »
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Offline Acebird

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 955
  • Gender: Male
  • Just getting started
Re: What is wrong with the idea...
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2010, 08:48:56 AM »
Hmm, where did the 8 frame box come from?  I am comparing a 3 ten frame mediums to 2 ten frame deeps.  Is my terminology wrong?  I am new at this.
Never thought I would do it!

Offline Scadsobees

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3198
  • Gender: Male
  • Best use of smileys in a post award.
Re: What is wrong with the idea...
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2010, 10:23:11 AM »
Hmm, where did the 8 frame box come from?  I am comparing a 3 ten frame mediums to 2 ten frame deeps.  Is my terminology wrong?  I am new at this.

Naw...lots of engineers and brilliant people here, plus cabin fever starting to set it, there's always a better way to do things than whatever you're doing now  :-D

It's actually because many people go with all mediums to cut down the weight of a box, and if you want to cut that down further you can buy boxes and equipment that accommodates 8 frames.  We've got LOTs of ideas here on the forum!!! :)
Rick

Offline Acebird

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 955
  • Gender: Male
  • Just getting started
Re: What is wrong with the idea...
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2010, 11:08:36 AM »
My purpose of using all mediums is that my home made extractor can only accommodate the medium frames.  Also, keeping the equipment the same allows me to purchase replacement supplies in larger quantities given that we are real small potatoes.
Never thought I would do it!

Online Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 14780
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: What is wrong with the idea...
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2010, 12:40:27 PM »
There are "standard" 10 frame boxes and then there are 8 frame boxes, which are not as wide.  I went to mediums and then I went to eight frame mediums.  It was worth the conversion.  My back is much happier and injured much less often lifting 48 pound boxes than 90 pound boxes.
Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen

Offline L Daxon

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 681
  • Gender: Female
Re: What is wrong with the idea...
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2010, 02:41:11 PM »
I am with Michael, using all 8 frame mediums for everything. 

Back in the 1980s, I used deeps for brood boxes and shallows for honey supers. (the books I read then said mediums were on their way out, ha ha!)

Using ALL the same size equipment just makes it so much easier to mix and match.  You can take a frame from the honey box and put it down in the brood chamber to beef up stores for the winter and not have to worry if it fits or not.  Likewise, you can move honey frames to help start a nuc (and I do have a 5 frame medium nuc--they are available.)  And as some one pointed out earlier, since you are ordering all the same size equipment, you can buy in bulk easier and get a slightly better price. 

I've seen people use nothing but deeps for both brood box and honey (mostly commercial types), but the weight is a consideration.  Now that I am a 60 yr. old female, moving the 8 frame mediums is a lot easier, especially if they are full of honey.

As to using a queen excluder on the bottom, I've heard of some people doing it "temporarily" when hiving a new swarm or package to make sure the girls take the time to get used to their new digs and don't immediately abscond.  But here we are just talking a matter of a few days at most.
linda d

Offline Acebird

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 955
  • Gender: Male
  • Just getting started
Re: What is wrong with the idea...
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2010, 04:44:02 PM »
as I said I wasn't comparing 8 to 10 anyway we don't lift the boxes but I do have a question about 8 frame boxes for the northerners.  How is the cluster affected with a smaller box?  I would think the hive stands a better chance of wintering in a bigger space but I don't know.
Never thought I would do it!

 

anything