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Author Topic: What is wrong with the idea...  (Read 4502 times)
Acebird
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« on: December 08, 2010, 02:35:33 PM »

What is wrong with the idea of using 3 medium supers for a hive body instead of 2 deep hive bodies?

If you put a queen extruder screen on the bottom of the hive will it prevent a swarm?  Is there a negative?
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« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2010, 02:48:54 PM »

There are several beeks on this site that use all medium equipment. I personally use one deep on the bottom, all other boxes are mediums.

I don't use queen excluders, many don't but its personal preference.


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« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2010, 02:54:45 PM »

Quote
If you put a queen extruder screen on the bottom of the hive will it prevent a swarm?  Is there a negative?

the drones can't get out. 

swarming is the natural inclination of a hive.  there are ways to manage a hive so that swarming is less likely, but i don't know that there is any fool proof way to prevent it, or that it is entirely desirable to prevent all swarming.  it is nice to be able to catch you own swarms!  grin 
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« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2010, 03:02:58 PM »

What is wrong with the idea of using 3 medium supers for a hive body instead of 2 deep hive bodies?
Nothing wrong with it, only draw back is you increase your cost ~30%.

Quote
If you put a queen extruder screen on the bottom of the hive will it prevent a swarm?  Is there a negative?

As Kathy mentioned, the dead drones will clog it up and it will wear out your forager's wings quicker.
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« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2010, 06:45:25 PM »

I use all medium/Illinois boxes, no problem, I winter with 3 mediums the equivalent of 1 and 1/2 deeps.

Mediums are being used by a lot more people it seems, basicaly those who are just starting out as hobbiest and don't plan on expanding agreat deal

The one problem may be finding medium nuc's if you use them, in your area, no problem just a little more work.

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« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2010, 07:18:48 PM »

I use all medium/Illinois boxes, no problem, I winter with 3 mediums the equivalent of 1 and 1/2 deeps.

Mediums are being used by a lot more people it seems, basicaly those who are just starting out as hobbiest and don't plan on expanding agreat deal

The one problem may be finding medium nuc's if you use them, in your area, no problem just a little more work.

Bee-Bop


How does that calculate out?  I figured that 3 mediums would be about 1.5 inches taller than 2 deeps.  Is it by cell count?  It wouldn't seem that the empty space between the frames would be that much but maybe it is.



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« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2010, 07:46:00 PM »

I guess this is the law of averages or something,
For years in the beekeeping world, it has been 2 mediums/Illinois  equal one deep.
Two mediums have the same "frame" bee space dept as 2 deeps, I forgot what it is 5/16 or 3/8 in.

I'm no mathematician and not going to quibble with the old timers when they said 2 mediums equal 1 deep!

Old timers ? I'm 71 and been fooling with these since 1958-59.

Of course what do I know.
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« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2010, 07:58:31 PM »

You are correct, 3 mediums are often used instead of 2 deeps.  If you want to get all technical, 3 supers (6 5/8) is bigger than 2 deeps (9 5/8) but then you do end up with an extra frame top and a gap, so I'd guess it would be a wash as far as # cells .

No, placing a queen excluder at the bottom won't stop  a swarm...well, maybe grin
The biggest problem as mentioned the drones can't get out, and would clog it up to the point that no other bees could get out and it would kill the hive.  And queens do slim down a bit in order to fly, there's a chance she could still get out in the case the excluder didn't get clogged..

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« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2010, 08:36:07 PM »

For years in the beekeeping world, it has been 2 mediums/Illinois  equal one deep.

 2 Shallow are about the same as 1 deep

I have been use 10 frames 3 medium supers for a hive body  since 1985- now
you"s to use 2 deep 1957-1984
 
 
What do I know  tongue I'm 62 been doing for bees 50+ years



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« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2010, 08:46:52 PM »

When I got my first package, I put an excluder on the bottom. Thought it was a SBB. Experienced beekeeper came by 10 days later and asked me what the h**l I was doing. Gulp. But hive was fine and there weren't any dead drones stuck in it (yet). Of course, that was the last time I used that excluder.   rolleyes
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« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2010, 09:27:31 PM »

>What is wrong with the idea of using 3 medium supers for a hive body instead of 2 deep hive bodies?

Nothing.  But I like four eight frame mediums even better...  what you save on back surgery will easily cover the increase in cost.

>If you put a queen extruder screen on the bottom of the hive will it prevent a swarm?  Is there a negative?

It's not workable.  During drone rearing season it will quickly get clogged with drones trying to get out and if they need to replace the queen the virgin will get stuck trying to leave to mate.
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« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2010, 12:35:06 AM »

I'll fess up, I have used queen excluders, to prevent a swarm, never! My use has been to keep the queen from moving to an area I don't want her in such as honey. With packages, and comb-less frames, I have made attempts to keep a mated queen from taking off with a wood entrance reducer for no more then 10 days max. How long does it take for drones to emerge with-in the hive?

I'm not using any at present and happy with it but I'm not against their use.
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« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2010, 09:25:51 AM »

Sorry all, I am an engineer...
I measured the area of the foundation on both frames.  Two deeps = 272 sq in, where as three mediums = 255 sq in, so that would equate to three mediums = 94% of two deeps.  Close enough for me to be considered equal.

I will not be using queen excluder on the bottom of the hive.  I am looking into adding another hive for next year and I am intrigued with the idea of a tower.  My wife is resisting because she doesn't want to upset the apple cart seeing as how we had such good luck this year with our single hive.  She wants to just get a whole new separate hive if our present hive survives the winter.

I suppose I shouldn't admit that we are not proponents for messing with the bees and refuse to introduce chemicals to the hive for any reason.  So I kind of like the idea of controlling mites the natural way even though it does mean messing with the hive somewhat.

Thanks for all that replied on this.
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« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2010, 04:18:57 PM »

>What is wrong with the idea of using 3 medium supers for a hive body instead of 2 deep hive bodies?

Nothing.  But I like four eight frame mediums even better...  what you save on back surgery will easily cover the increase in cost.


Acebird ....
  
   If you use 8 frame boxes 4 for a hive body  it is 32 frames but the 8 frame will but taller be for you  put on you'r honey  supers
   If you use 10 frame boxes 3 for a hive body  it is 30 frames just my $0.02

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« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2010, 07:48:56 AM »

Hmm, where did the 8 frame box come from?  I am comparing a 3 ten frame mediums to 2 ten frame deeps.  Is my terminology wrong?  I am new at this.
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« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2010, 09:23:11 AM »

Hmm, where did the 8 frame box come from?  I am comparing a 3 ten frame mediums to 2 ten frame deeps.  Is my terminology wrong?  I am new at this.

Naw...lots of engineers and brilliant people here, plus cabin fever starting to set it, there's always a better way to do things than whatever you're doing now  grin

It's actually because many people go with all mediums to cut down the weight of a box, and if you want to cut that down further you can buy boxes and equipment that accommodates 8 frames.  We've got LOTs of ideas here on the forum!!! Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2010, 10:08:36 AM »

My purpose of using all mediums is that my home made extractor can only accommodate the medium frames.  Also, keeping the equipment the same allows me to purchase replacement supplies in larger quantities given that we are real small potatoes.
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« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2010, 11:40:27 AM »

There are "standard" 10 frame boxes and then there are 8 frame boxes, which are not as wide.  I went to mediums and then I went to eight frame mediums.  It was worth the conversion.  My back is much happier and injured much less often lifting 48 pound boxes than 90 pound boxes.
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« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2010, 01:41:11 PM »

I am with Michael, using all 8 frame mediums for everything. 

Back in the 1980s, I used deeps for brood boxes and shallows for honey supers. (the books I read then said mediums were on their way out, ha ha!)

Using ALL the same size equipment just makes it so much easier to mix and match.  You can take a frame from the honey box and put it down in the brood chamber to beef up stores for the winter and not have to worry if it fits or not.  Likewise, you can move honey frames to help start a nuc (and I do have a 5 frame medium nuc--they are available.)  And as some one pointed out earlier, since you are ordering all the same size equipment, you can buy in bulk easier and get a slightly better price. 

I've seen people use nothing but deeps for both brood box and honey (mostly commercial types), but the weight is a consideration.  Now that I am a 60 yr. old female, moving the 8 frame mediums is a lot easier, especially if they are full of honey.

As to using a queen excluder on the bottom, I've heard of some people doing it "temporarily" when hiving a new swarm or package to make sure the girls take the time to get used to their new digs and don't immediately abscond.  But here we are just talking a matter of a few days at most.
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« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2010, 03:44:02 PM »

as I said I wasn't comparing 8 to 10 anyway we don't lift the boxes but I do have a question about 8 frame boxes for the northerners.  How is the cluster affected with a smaller box?  I would think the hive stands a better chance of wintering in a bigger space but I don't know.
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« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2010, 08:46:21 PM »

Hmm, where did the 8 frame box come from?  I am comparing a 3 ten frame mediums to 2 ten frame deeps.  Is my terminology wrong?  I am new at this.

Acebird....
 huh Did you look at Reply #10  huh

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« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2010, 08:50:26 PM »

IMO they winter better in the eight frame box.  It fits the cluster better and they leave less food behind and have less indecision about where to go.  Up is really the only option.
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« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2010, 11:12:49 AM »

IMO they winter better in the eight frame box.  It fits the cluster better and they leave less food behind and have less indecision about where to go.  Up is really the only option.


Oh boy, now I have to admit how stupid I am.  After running off at the mouth about 10 frames vs. 8 what we actually have is an 8 frame body and we winter over with two deeps. embarassed embarassed

Yes I did Jim.

So Michele, are you saying to winter over with 4 mediums or are the 4 mediums what you use in the summer and the one on top is considered the super for honey extraction?  I am going back to my calculation where 3 mediums just about equals 2 deeps.  It doesn’t matter much if we are talking about 8 or 10 frames.
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« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2010, 05:47:08 PM »

IMO they winter better in the eight frame box.  It fits the cluster better and they leave less food behind and have less indecision about where to go.  Up is really the only option.


a very prominent beekeeper name Serge Labesque who teaches around here, uses follower boards in all his 10 frame hives. So when using those follower boards, which I do have in some of my hives, I end up with 8 frame mediums anyway. He is in agreement with Michael Bush that the cluster fits the 8 frames better. From my experience, well I don't really know, I just like the follower boards for ease of manipulation. I overwinter with 3 mediums, some 8 frames (follower boards) and some 10 frames and it all works out well.
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« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2010, 07:01:00 PM »

This is very interesting because a 10 frame hive is more square (less rectangle).  One dimension is a constant so going from 10 to 8 makes it more rectangular.  The cluster being a sphere, suggest that there will be space on two of the sides but not the other two.


This discussion has been great.  I thing I will go with all mediums for our next hive.
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« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2010, 07:01:39 PM »

 My personal preference as to uses 3  mediums 10 frame boxes I put in 9 frames and 2 follower boards for the hive  body


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« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2010, 07:11:25 PM »

All right I will bite.  You are using 9 frames plus 2 followers, how do you get them in?  If you are going to squish down a 10 frame why not go to an 8 frame to begin with?  Is it what you have or is there some other advantage of a 10 frame?
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« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2010, 08:53:21 PM »

   My are 1/4 in plywood  cut to the size of my frames (deep, med or shallow) and placed in the #1 and #10 position.   That it gives the hive better air circulation in winter (less condensation close to the bees)and the queen will lay closer to them than she would the hive body wall in the summer.IMHO


http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,23432.0.html


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« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2010, 09:40:07 PM »

The arguments for follower boards are:

1)  You get a double wall on the outside edges which cuts down on condensation and keeps them warmer.
2)  You can remove a follower more easily than a comb covered in bees (the follower is smoother and seldom has bees on both sides of it.

The concept is to have a 3/8" gap on each side of the follower (a beespace) so that it is easily removed without rolling bees.

As far as the "square" concept, I think square is nice, but since it's not standard and a square Langstroth would be bigger than the cluster, the eight frame works fine.  The easy way for bees to move is with the gaps between the frames.  The difficult way in winter is from "frame to frame".  You've eliminated some of the "frame to frame" movement in the eight frame box.
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« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2010, 06:41:56 AM »

why not go to an 8 frame to begin with? 

 If I use 8 frame boxer it will end up to bee 7 frame and 2 follower boards per box ..


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« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2011, 02:11:01 PM »

When I was young and ambitious, I examined my two year old queen colonies every 9 days and crushed queen cells to keep them from swarming.  I think it worked, that and making really sure they had lots of room.  I would take a couple frames of brood away from them and give them foundation to build right in the heart of the brood chamber.  I didn't lose many swarms.  But some bees seem intent on swarming no matter what and they always seemed to get it done.
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« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2011, 06:58:29 PM »

The bees will also build burr comb between the boxes where they will raise drone brood and store honey. Usually towards the end of summer,early fall after harvest I let them fill these gaps for storage and as a bridge for the cluster to move between the boxes without having to crawl over open space.
You can clean out the empty burr comb in spring.
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« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2011, 10:29:05 PM »

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesswarmcontrol.htm
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« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2011, 10:28:11 PM »

Acebird i have 8 frame equipment.  The bees will go up quicker in 8 frame then 10 frame because they arent as wide obviously. They are great for cut comb honey because the bees go up faster and draw out the frames without having to move frames around. The less room the better for the bees the hives will retain more heat from the cluster.
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« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2011, 12:09:38 PM »

Quote
The less room the better for the bees the hives will retain more heat from the cluster.

I guess that assumes that the cluster is the same size.  You would think that a bigger hive with more stores would support a larger cluster.  If that is the case than in may be warmer in the bigger hive.  Anyways I have 8 frame equipment and I will be sticking with it.  I hope to have two hives next season so maybe I will try the follower boards in one of them.  Are these follower boards used just in the winter or all the time?
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