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Author Topic: what are the odds???  (Read 3543 times)
hoku
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« on: December 06, 2010, 01:50:25 PM »

So...Im doing a trapout from a tree.  Started 14 days ago.  I have put in 2 frames of eggs and they have failed to make queen cells.  I dont have the luxury of more egg frames to give them.

Next,  One of my hives just succumbed to SHB.  I caught it before they all left and I captured the queen.  The same day, I put her in a cage with attendants and placed her in this trapout hive.  The following day, I opened the Trapout hive to check on its progress, and I accidentally released the queen(I had her in a "homemade" cage that was not great).  I saw her walk out of the cage and then down into the hordes of bees, but just for a second.  Didnt notice any "attacking" by the bees.  She was only in the trapout hive for about 18 hours before her release.

Do you think they will kill her?  I know I can wait and see if eggs start appearing, but just wanted to see if anyone had experience with this.
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iddee
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« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2010, 04:50:05 PM »

It's only a guess, but I'm guessing she will be fine if the tree queen isn't in there. Give it 4 or 5 days and you will likely find eggs.
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« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2010, 07:22:52 AM »

If you are doing a trap out, all your collecting is Field bees (and the occasional bees cleaning the hive of bits, or those on cleansing flights. Placing two frames of eggs means emergency queen cells at best, void of any real numbers of nurse bees. I think the quality of queen might be less than average, even if they did raise one.

I do however think that they will (or did) accept the new queen.

Is it your goal to kill the colony in the tree?
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hoku
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« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2010, 01:50:23 PM »

thanks for your inputs, guys.....I am hopeful the queen has made it. 

My goal, Bjornbee, is to get more bees under management, for my own selfish reasons, and also because feral hives are dropping like flies right now in Hawai'i(because of mites and SHB).  I am guessing as soon as the bee numbers in the tree get low enough, SHB will take over and finish it off unfortunately.  One day, I hope feral bees will re-inhabit the tree.  I have trapped out of this tree before, and it usually is reoccupied in short order.

On a side note, though, I just observed yesterday that they bees coming out of the cone in the last 2 days have K wings and many are walking on the ground and die in the cone rapidly if there is a clog.  So.......Im feeling thwarted as this looks like severe trachael mites.  Geesh!  what next!!!! 
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BjornBee
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« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2010, 02:46:49 PM »

I understand.

I'll pass on even attempting to ask what "under management" means.

This actually is a great lesson in so many areas.

1) Why bringing in bees from Australia with no mite resistance WAS A BAD IDEA! Bees never exposed to mites will start on day one and repeat history of the bees going before them.

2) We get to see the mistakes played out again in Hawaii as treating and chemicals will be once again be the norm.

3) The idea that we can do better than nature. This means ripping out all the bees now in attempts to "save" them. And then in a few years when a few are left to be found, ripping those out and labeling them as survivors and assuming they are better than what we originally ripped out and kept ourselves.

History....you got to love it! Afterall, we keep repeating it.
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Scadsobees
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« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2010, 04:25:34 PM »

Wow...while I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, that last post sounded ...well... arrogant and insulting, not to mention to mention somewhat off topic.  Bjorn, you aren't channeling George Imarie, are you?? rolleyes
...

Your hive should be fine as far as the queen goes.  If they don't have a queen, they will want one and accept one more quickly, and if they had some hidden queen cells, they'd kill the new queen and still be fine.  And an emergency queen, while not ideal in most situations, is sure a lot better than no queen or a laying worker.  She can be evaluated and requeened at a later date if she fails, and even if she were to prove crappy, would probably get you through to the requeen point.

You can keep the hive surviving on chemicals as long as you need to to start introducing more resistant queens.  Then those swarms that you lose will re-inhabit that tree and others around you.   

Whew...glad that getting into the saltwater/reef hobby has been occupying my time lately!! grin
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« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2010, 04:55:37 PM »

Wow...while I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, that last post sounded ...well... arrogant and insulting, not to mention to mention somewhat off topic.  Bjorn, you aren't channeling George Imarie, are you?? rolleyes

I have no clue as to what part is arrogant or insulting.

Hawaii has the same model we had over twenty years ago. And I am sure some of the same mistakes will be made again.

What mistakes you ask....

Well, I am not alone in suggesting we would be better off 25 years later IF we would not of been treating for all these years. It may of been needed for large pollination operations that needed to stay in operation, but breeders and backyard beekeepers would of been better off not stumbling down that same path of chemical and treatment reliance.  

If every beekeeper went out and "saved" bees, thinking we are doing them favors, I would think the feral colonies we see today would be far worse off than the survivors we now have. I'm not picking on hoku. Just mentioning what has happened in the past. And this past may not be knowledgeable to hoku in his limited beekeeping experience listed on the website.  

Some suggest that the feral bees are better off than the managed and "saved" colonies that many beekeepers keep today. Seems nature perhaps has a better plan than most beekeepers who "save" bees.

And I have never heard a good reason to trap out bees in attempts to "save" them, now or anytime in the past. I think there are inherent qualities and positive traits that feral bees have, only to be lost by placing them in managed hives. I wish beekeepers would let feral colonies alone.

If you are suggesting that we did the BEST we could of over the past 25 years since mites arrived. You certainly need not respond. But if you think that perhaps we did not do the best we could as an industry, then open discussion, pointing out the obvious, and discussing what has happened, and of what will happen, and perhaps a change in bee philosophy may be worth the time.

And there is nothing arrogant about that.  Wink
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« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2010, 09:39:43 PM »

I understand.

I'll pass on even attempting to ask what "under management" means.

This actually is a great lesson in so many areas.

3) The idea that we can do better than nature. This means ripping out all the bees now in attempts to "save" them. And then in a few years when a few are left to be found, ripping those out and labeling them as survivors and assuming they are better than what we originally ripped out and kept ourselves.

History....you got to love it! Afterall, we keep repeating it.

That ^^^ part, sounds like hoku has a few hives and is trying to what all the rest of us have done or do, struggling with it as we all have, and I thought it a bit much for this particular thread.  I didn't see anything about hoku trying to save the bees, it sounds more like hoku is just trying to get some bees.  Under management (meaning in their bee yard, in possession).  Seems to be a lot to drop on somebody struggling to get some bees and a few hives.

In a separate thread, ok then it is discussion.  But in response to this person's question?Huh  I found it insulting and think you need to make your own thread to make those points.


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Rick
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« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2010, 10:24:52 PM »

Oh Geesh.

Someone send me an icon with a crying baby.

I'm just glad you or others understand what I'm talking about. I could see if you felt different. But you found it insulting....  rolleyes

I love how you took a partial comment from hoku to prove your point (Some would suggest this is insulting to hoku) that he was just trying to get some bees. Did you forget the reasoning...wait I'll add it here...

"Also because feral bees are dropping like flies...."

Yes, he did not use the term "save". But the definition is certainly there. Glossed over that did you? Clearly he is taking bees since they are dying in the feral colonies and he feels he will do better by putting them in a managed colony and treating. In the end, there will be one less feral colony after hoku is finished. Some actually think this is the worst thing you can do. But now I suppose I should of waited till hoku has a hundred posts to make this point. How sad to think so lowly of hoku that he could not appreciate or understand my opinion. He may not agree with it. But I'm sure he is not sitting with tears over this thread.

It's not about hoku being in the same boat as us. It's about passing on the knowledge and experiences, opinions, and insight, so he does not take the boat down the same waterfall.

I'll never agree that anyone should rip out feral colonies thinking we will do better than what the bees will do on their own.  Wink If that is insulting to you, sorry.
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iddee
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« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2010, 10:31:09 PM »

 Cry   Cry   Cry   Cry   Cry   Cry   Cry    Cry

Anything you might wish, Boss.
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« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2010, 10:41:25 PM »

Cry   Cry   Cry   Cry   Cry   Cry   Cry    Cry

Anything you might wish, Boss.

 grin

As my mom used to tell strangers on the street..."Please don't encourage the boy!"  Wink
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« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2010, 11:21:52 AM »

So, dead bees are better than live managed bees! I was wondering how that would all work out. If we just let them all die off we'll have stronger bees for the future. I just want one fine point of explanation; how do dead bees evolve Varroa resistance? I feel so dumb! Duh! grin
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« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2010, 12:36:06 PM »

So, dead bees are better than live managed bees! I was wondering how that would all work out. If we just let them all die off we'll have stronger bees for the future. I just want one fine point of explanation; how do dead bees evolve Varroa resistance? I feel so dumb! Duh! grin

I'll keep this simple....

Do you think there are good survivors and feral colonies here in the states after 25 years of mites?

Do you think managed bees are better than feral populations?

Do you think we are better off now after 25 years later as an industry that has been treating all along?

Do you think that if every beekeeper in Hawaii collected EVERY feral colony on the islands and managed them, that in the long run the bee population would be better or worse off?

I'll reply with my own thoughts and facts after you spend as much effort and typing as me.  Wink This will also allow me to concentrate my replies perhaps on areas where we differ.

But I'll let you know now that I think in the scenario as seen in Hawaii, bringing in better stock and getting rid of ALL existing nonresistant bee strains is probably the answer. It is not about going through the same process we have gone through in the states, while thinking we will have better bees by removing all the feral colonies and managing them.

Do you actually understand what happened in this trapping? a beekeeper trapped out a feral colony, for the sake of some old field bees, and will kill this hive. Are you kidding me? It's not a cutout. It's not an attempt to save a colony. It's the killing of a feral colony for the benefit of some old field bees. And I have beekeepers justifying this. Unbelievable. And one wonders why the industry is so screwed up.

He killed a colony, benefitted from some old Field bees, and probably transmitted disease and mites to his own hives. Yeah.....go for it. I think it's sad that we have become so politically correct that discussing this or having a varied point of view is seen as a negative.

Ignorance and being dumb....are two different things. We are all ignorant. We are not all dumb.  Wink
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« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2010, 02:13:34 PM »

Fish stix, don't encourage him!  He won't give up.... beat a dead horse
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Rick
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« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2010, 02:35:43 PM »

What's to give up?

lets take it to the next issue, and fly right past the colony being saved since mites are now present.

How about someone perhaps giving hoku some advice and a better way of adding to his colony count.

We all of course focused in on my comments about this recent trap-out, and the mentioning of doing this to save the bees.

And while some here give a pass to a lowly beekeeper just trying to save some bees from those nasty mites, lets consider the trap-outs mentioned prior to mites arriving.

He mentions that he has trapped out bees prior to mites from this very tree, and has killed off past feral colonies to have the bees reoccupy the cavity again and again.

Maybe someone could suggest that his overall practice of more bees would better suited for placing swarm traps, splits, or even allowing the bees to survive in the tree. He acknowledges that he hopes to have this cavity filled in the future with feral bees. For what purpose? So he can trap out older field bees and kill another colony? But that could never happen if every beekeeper just went out and killed off the feral colonies as he has done time and time again.

I would hate for others to read this and somehow get the idea that trapping out feral colonies to collect older field bees was the norm in the bee industry. If a tree needs removed, then that is one thing. But to constantly go out and trap feral colonies to the point the original colony dies, all in attempts to add field bees to existing managed hives, is somewhat questionable. Mites or no mites, someone explain to me WHY you think this is a good idea?

I hope Hoku can appreciate perhaps another perspective and considers why we need feral bees also. I have heard of beekeepers taking the time to trap a box of bees via a trap out. Although I think it is a waste myself. I can at least understand that. But to trapout a colony for weeks and kill the feral colony...why? Go ahead scads...give it a try. I'm listening.
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kathyp
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« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2010, 03:00:12 PM »

Quote
I would hate for others to read this and somehow get the idea that trapping out feral colonies to collect older field bees was the norm in the bee industry. If a tree needs removed, then that is one thing. But to constantly go out and trap feral colonies to the point the original colony dies, all in attempts to add field bees to existing managed hives, is somewhat questionable. Mites or no mites, someone explain to me WHY you think this is a good idea?

these hives are great for swarms.  my own choice would be to set up swarm traps and take those instead of taking the hive from the tree.  sometimes it needs to be done.....

still, since he has chosen this path, his question is a good one.  sounds like your queen will be ok.  you'll know in a few days.
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« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2010, 03:22:20 PM »

 pop
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« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2010, 05:03:11 PM »

You keep mentioning a beekeeping industry.  Trapping has never been part of that industry.  Very few people on the forums are part of the industry.  Just because I own a car and work on my car doesn't mean I'm part of the auto industry.   I participate in the beekeeping hobby, not the industry.

And trapping out bees has never been the norm for the industry.  Never will be.  The vast majority of the time it is a matter of curiosity or building up managed hives for a hobbyist, or saving a colony that is going to destroyed.  The amount of work involved makes it impractical at best, so that leaves for curiosity or fun.  There was no mention in this post of saving genetics, the main reason for the poster doing this was to get another hive.  (my impression was he was trying to justify his desire for a new hive by portraying it as benificent in case people take umbrage to his removing a wild colony - which I think is just fine).

I tried it once when my hive count was low (and out of curiosity), got a hive from it, failed to remove the parent colony, and won't do it again because it wasn't so fun.  But if somebody enjoys trapping hives out of a tree?  Go for it!  If you see all the ferals dying and you think you can keep some hives more successfully? Go for it!

But I know I've done my share to contribute to the feral population  rolleyes

Those who don't learn from the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it, but I've had plenty of people tell me not to do things because of history and such, and they were wrong and I could do it (and it felt GREAT!).  If there isn't any bad side effects (one feral colony taken out, if that hurts the island, then they've got much more dire problems), why not try? 


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Rick
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« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2010, 06:15:23 PM »

Scads,
I feel sorry for you to not feel part of an industry.

This forum is part of an industry. This forum allows the public to access the industry. This is a place where MOST beekeepers learn beekeeping. Says so right on the main page.

I think all of our collective actions impact the overall image, the message, and the public support of beekeeping in general. While you may think the "industry" is a bunch of migratory beekeepers who would never stop to take out a feral colony, I think non-commercial beekeepers are the real industry. They are the ones at the public schools giving speeches, they are the mentors at the local bee clubs, and they have a much more visible and stronger voice effecting the public's image compared to the "industry" of those who you circumvent these qualities.

In Pennsylvania, 98% of beekeepers are not what anyone would call the "industry" by your definition. But their collective voice is what changes, educates, and gathers support in communities in all corners of the land.

Yes, if you only come here and contribute to the "industry" by doing nothing more than typing on a computer for a couple hours each day, then I agree, you are not part of any industry. In my opinion, you are missing some great parts of beekeeping. I think those that do spend the time in the public, at schools, at county and state bee functions and events, many of which are tailored at educating the public, then they should consider themselves as part of the industry.

Nobody at the local schools, at the state park, at the local farmers market...know of anyone other than local beekeepers. They see them as the industry. They see them as beekeepers. They see them as the industry. They ask these beekeepers about the bees. They do NOT see those that you claim are the industry.

Maybe that is the problem. Some think so lowly of themselves that they don't think they matter. That they have no impact. That they can not invoke change. That their actions are not worthy of thinking they are part of a larger picture. Sad indeed.

Your car analogy hardly compares on any level to the efforts, goodwill, and deeds of those that consider themselves part of the bee industry. I know I try every day to educate, help, and progress the industry that I love. And I clearly consider myself part of the industry. And I encourage others to think this way also. The hobby, actually turns out to be much more than a hobby, if you care about more than yourself.
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« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2010, 07:43:07 PM »

wow...so intense!

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/industry
So I'm considering industry in the common sense of the word (1-4) and you are using it as #6.

The funny thing is that I agree with you on most things, at least in general.

I've had a lot of professors in college. Great teachers, smart teachers, knowledgeable teachers.  Some of the smartest teachers insisted that you do everything their way.  And they'd insist on 3 hours of study out of class for every one in class.  And assignments, work studies, group studies.  Boy, were you going to learn the right way!! And don't try to argue...they knew it all!  And for electives which had no bearing on majors.  Those were the worst teachers, those classes really stunk.  George Imarie, for all his knowledge, fell into this category.

The best teachers taught, made things interesting, didn't holler at you or call you a beehaver if you did it wrong.  They shared information, encouraged experimentation, encouraged trying to make things work that hadn't before.  As long as nothing terrible happens, try it!

Its a hobby for me and most here.  If you want to call that the industry go for it.  But it will always be that, like radio controlled cars, birds, aquariums.  I care about a lot more than myself, but beekeeping is pretty far down on the list (after God, family, job, house,...) which is why it is in the hobby.  When it becomes much more than that to me, and it isn't a business...well then it is time for me to throw in the towel because there isn't room more of it in my life right now.  If that makes you sad, then I'm sorry   :'(.

Well...I'm off to learn some more about corals and seahorses...this thread is now wayyyy off topic (sorry hoku!!), and beekeeping is getting way to intense for a hobby!! Smiley

Have a great night, Rick
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