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Author Topic: Ok, flame away!  (Read 3788 times)
Bheckel169
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« on: November 23, 2010, 08:30:30 PM »

I'm brand new to this forum and I certainly don't want to offend but after learning about top bar hives that have clearly been around much longer than Langstroth hives, the only conclusion I can come up with is that beekeepers who own Langstroth hives are either commercial beekeepers or beekeepers who just want a lot of honey.
So, why does anyone aside from the aforementioned types want to have Langstroth hives?
I've read enough to know that the negatives attributed to top bar hives are based on either, the uninformed or who, out of habit, simply don't want to know what may be an alternative type of bee hive.
I don't really care whether I've created a hornet's nest. I've simply done my homework and I just don't understand why anyone other than a commercial beekeeper would not want to look at a top bar hive. Flame away!
Bruce
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kathyp
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« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2010, 08:40:57 PM »

i'm not sure that's accurate.  it's just different styles.  they both have + and -.  it's just about what works for you.  yes, i like the honey and the lang frames can be extracted.  i find them more convenient for the setup i have.  they certainly are easier to transport or to swarm catch. 


Quote
beekeepers who just want a lot of honey

most of us don't consider this a negative.  beekeeping can be expensive.  selling honey offsets some cost, even for the hobby beekeeper.  it tastes good and honey makes a nice gift (or bribe).

the consideration should go to the care of the bees, not the style of beekeeping.  any bunch of beekeepers, even using the same equipment, will have different styles of beekeeping.

if top bar is what you have chosen to do, that's great.  there is a section here on top bar hives and people who keep them that will be happy to help you out.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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BjornBee
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« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2010, 08:43:00 PM »

I would like to ask WHY you take the stand you do?

I think TBH is no more "natural" than a Langstroth. You can use natural comb in both, with the main difference of one being vertical and the other horizontal.

I guess if we are going to have this discussion, I might as well add some fair and balanced comments detailing my own thoughts as to the pro and cons of the TBH.

I originally added my page to the website for the sole purpose in response to the narrow-minded viewpoint that those solely promoting TBH's give. I love TBH beekeeping, but detest the single point promotion of what some think as a "this or that" approach to beekeeping on general terms.

Here is an unbiased look at TBH's.... http://www.bjornapiaries.com/topbarbeekeeping.html

I would be more than willing to discuss any individual area in regards to keeping TBHs, but I ask that your details include more than the broad strokes you thus far have offered.

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Bee-Bop
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« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2010, 09:19:24 PM »

Looks like this fellow is playing this game on both boards !

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248542

How to make friends and influence people ??

Bee-Bop
« Last Edit: November 23, 2010, 09:38:16 PM by Bee-Bop » Logged

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Scadsobees
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« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2010, 09:50:31 PM »

Well, I've considered it, but I learned with the Langs and are happy with them.  No more or less natural than TBH unless the bees happened to find a cavity in a tree laying down versus one still standing.  The bees don't care.  I've never had the opportunity and need to build one.

I'm just a hobbyist, and Langs are easier for me because they are the most popular (for a reason!) and therefore equipment is exchangeable and readily available.  And better because I can get more bees and more honey.

Unless you are absolutely convinced that TBH's are better and are going to tell us we all need to change to them and how stupid we are if we don't, then you can put the flame suit away, because there's always more than one right way to do something if one has different expectations.

Rick
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Rick
iddee
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« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2010, 10:24:06 PM »

horse and wagon=TBH
Automobile=langstroth

oil lamps and candles=TBH
Electricity=Langstroth

Loincloth=TBH
Sewn clothing=Langstroth

It just depends on whether you want to live in the ice age or modern day times.
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bigbearomaha
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« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2010, 07:19:08 AM »

another fine example of how individual opinions are just that...opinions and nothing more.  like you were told on bee source... use what works for you and keep going.

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David McLeod
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« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2010, 08:12:01 AM »

Wow, you just got to love these guys that have five minutes worth under their belt and all of a sudden have all the answers. Opinionated as all get out and totally lacking respect for others. I just love these guys.
I find that they are quite entertaining as they are usually passionate individuals that either provide a glorious flame out or a humbling and sometimes humiliating crash landing. Either way pass the popcorn this could be fun to watch. LOL

Bheckel169, in spite of my morbid desire to see someone corkscrew it into the ground I am interested in hearing your points of view. Without rancor please delineate your opinions on TBH vs Langs there are several old hands of both styles on this forum and the resulting conversation could be very enlightening for all who love the ladies of the hive.

JMHO, but both styles have their place depending on one's goals (both hell, there are as many ways to keep bees in boxes AND keep them healthy as there are beeks).
« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 09:00:26 AM by David McLeod » Logged

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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2010, 08:34:44 AM »

It just depends on whether you want to live in the ice age or modern day times.
Modern times?  The Lang was introduced in 1851.  You know, back in the horse and wagon days.  grin   The real modern innovation was the movable frame.  Greek top bar hives from several thousand years ago had movable frames, and that was a real leap forward.  Langs are convenient for folks who want to move their hives frequently, but also involve more heavy lifting.   So I don't really see that the Langstroth hive is a modern "innovation" for home beekeepers.

I would agree that the Langstroth frame is an improvement over top bars.  The horizontal hives, such as Michael Bush builds, are a nice compromise that uses Langstroth frames in a horizontal array, giving the advantages of both systems.  If your hives are intended to be stationary, I would say this is the "modern" hive.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 08:55:25 AM by FRAMEshift » Logged

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Scadsobees
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« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2010, 08:56:16 AM »

I got a 27 out of 50.  This isn't bad I think.  I just started learning about bees about 30 days ago and have watched 2 dvd's and am about a third of the way through "Beekeeping for Dummies". 
Bruce

After only 45 days of reading about beekeeping...you may want to hit the books again - WAY premature to come to any conclusions.
 
And then actually get some hives and bees.  Once you get some bees you may find that your ideas are affirmed, or you may find that you are wrong.  You may find that you have enough honey, or you may find that you want/need more.

Reading is great, but you don't really learn until you have a few of the "ladies" chasing you. Smiley

Rick
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Rick
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« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2010, 08:59:50 AM »

"""another fine example of how individual opinions are just that...opinions and nothing more."""

Yes, Yes, and Yes.
It would be a boring world if we all thought the same.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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kathyp
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« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2010, 09:28:02 AM »

Quote
in spite of my morbid desire to see someone corkscrew it into the ground


may i have this please?   grin
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
sarafina
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« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2010, 09:40:44 AM »

Since he already has all the answers to beekeeping.......  I am waiting for his views on combating varroa  grin
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Eric-WD
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« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2010, 11:44:32 AM »

Ok from a  read the books don't know squat about bees newbee. (aka me)
In my opinion.
 TBH more like what the bees did in the dark ages before domestication. from the opinion of some of the websites apparently helps them feel closer to there ancestors. 
TBH is far less expensive to start out with and requires less in equipment.  If your not concerned about maximum returns from your bees, just want your garden pollinated, like the thought of seeing bees do what bees do then a TBH is probably for you.

Lang, been the choice of non-pro and professionals for 150 + years, so able to purchase new and used equipment many places. (if your not into wood working this is a plus). Movable, if you don't own the property where your bees are located or may want to move them sometime in the future it is much easier with Langs. Langs lend them selves for top honey production. the bees don't spend time manufacturing comb and can put the time and resources into honey production.

there is a lot of opinion about both sides of this issue with people beating the drum for both. as for me I'm thinking one of each.

Eric
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VolunteerK9
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« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2010, 11:59:42 AM »

Ok from a  read the books don't know squat about bees newbee. (aka me)
In my opinion.
 TBH more like what the bees did in the dark ages before domestication. from the opinion of some of the websites apparently helps them feel closer to there ancestors. 

Eric

Pooping in the woods and wiping with poison oak leaves would make me feel closer to mine too I suppose but it doesn't make me want to do it  grin

I don't see how anyone who has partially read a book (not books) and watched a video or two suddenly becomes an authority of one style of hive versus another. I'm a first year beekeeper myself but I wouldn't dare draw a line in the sand with obviously more experienced beeks. This guy doesn't even own 'a' bee.

Back to the ancestral feelings of honeybees, I think that's a little deep. Maybe I can partially read a book on Bee Physcology and come back here and call the whole forum out on it.
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Eric-WD
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« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2010, 01:09:26 PM »

K9 as I said in my opening it is my opinion of the pluses of both types of hives I was trying to answer his question. I try not to flame anyone.

As far as the psychology of bees, I think bees are happy when they are healthy and doing what bees do aka make honey.  I was paraphrasing some of the gurus of TBH on the net who feel that a tbh will make the bees happier healthier and cure their athlete's foot. and I guess my mild sarcasm didn't make it off the page.

As far as disease resistance etc. superiority of TBH I will wait for a conclusive study on langs vs TBH from a major university before I buy the hype one way or another.

Eric
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David McLeod
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« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2010, 01:35:09 PM »

Okay, I haven't addressed either style so I shall attempt to do so with one caveat. I have zero experience with TBH and my Lang experience is over two decades old. But my main qualifier is the aforementioned past experience with the ladies and current experience for the past six years of removing honeybees from structures and assorted cavities. So break out the salt block and take it for what it's worth.
Bees left to their own devices will establish colonies in a broad range of cavities ranging from true vertical, if there is such a thing in nature, to true horizontal and anything in between. Personally, I believe they select as much by volume as anything else but as anyone who has seen an exposed nest knows sometimes they just get it wrong altogether! Now that said the bees do have a unidirectional mode of construction using the one constant of the universe, GRAVITY. Comb is always built on the vertical and all nest activities are dictated by that constant. Through the years various suppositions and theories have been put into use through various and sundry hive designs with each in turn holding various claims to fame for the benefit of the bees or more correctly the beek. Just as many have sought to better the situation for the bees or beek through hive design so to have the methods of keeping evolved for the betterment of keeper and kept and that IMHO is where the issues lie between the TBH and Lang. Neither design is inherently "wrong" in the eyes of the bees, history shows the adaptability of the bee in natural form will allow them to reside in almost anything we provide. It is more in the methodology we use in the manipulation to our needs that can effect the well being of the hive residents.
 
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kathyp
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« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2010, 01:45:15 PM »

ducks fan....hmmmm, could be a problem!   Wink   evil

since our original poster has not bothered to come back here or the other site, i am going to assume it was a drive by.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2010, 02:19:44 PM »

ducks fan....hmmmm, could be a problem!   Wink   evil

since our original poster has not bothered to come back here or the other site, i am going to assume it was a drive by.

Perhaps he trying to read a few more pages or find a video to prove his point???
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bigbearomaha
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« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2010, 03:02:58 PM »

 I think bees just fill space.

they fill either a primarily vertical space or a primarily horizontal space irregardless.

They pretty much always start at the top of a void with a single 'central' comb and draw it vertically downward.  Then, if there is space on either side of the first comb, they draw comb horizontal to that until there is no more space to fill horizontally and continue to draw the comb downwards on all combs until there is no more space left.

depending the shape and direction of the void they built the nest in, determines their movement and storing of resources.  this then determines the direction they move in when in a winter situation and the cluster needs to move  either upwards to stores above the area they are in or they move horizontally in the direction of the food that was stored in the combs to the side of the area they started the cluster in.

We have seen and observed plenty of situations where feral bees have been removed from both vertical nests in walls of buildings and in trees, etc and we have seen feral bees removed from horizontal locations such as roofs and ceilings and underneath eaves.    JP has posted a great selection of videos with exactly these scenarios.  All of them "naturally" selected by feral honey bees. They were not placed there by a beekeeper.

given this willingness to locate themselves in either vertical or horizontal nesting places,  I don't think it is unreasonable for a beekeeper to find success with either type of beekeeper chosen hive.

It simply becomes more important for the beekeeper to learn methods and measures that will best support the colony in that environment.

This un-necessary "competition" between hive types and methods is kind of silly because there is no universal law of only one way of beekeeping.  It's simple enough to decide if you like something and then do it.  equally, if you don't agree with something, don't do it.

Why try to change others methods when you are free to choose your own?



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