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Author Topic: Ok, flame away!  (Read 3713 times)
Bheckel169
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« on: November 23, 2010, 08:30:30 PM »

I'm brand new to this forum and I certainly don't want to offend but after learning about top bar hives that have clearly been around much longer than Langstroth hives, the only conclusion I can come up with is that beekeepers who own Langstroth hives are either commercial beekeepers or beekeepers who just want a lot of honey.
So, why does anyone aside from the aforementioned types want to have Langstroth hives?
I've read enough to know that the negatives attributed to top bar hives are based on either, the uninformed or who, out of habit, simply don't want to know what may be an alternative type of bee hive.
I don't really care whether I've created a hornet's nest. I've simply done my homework and I just don't understand why anyone other than a commercial beekeeper would not want to look at a top bar hive. Flame away!
Bruce
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« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2010, 08:40:57 PM »

i'm not sure that's accurate.  it's just different styles.  they both have + and -.  it's just about what works for you.  yes, i like the honey and the lang frames can be extracted.  i find them more convenient for the setup i have.  they certainly are easier to transport or to swarm catch. 


Quote
beekeepers who just want a lot of honey

most of us don't consider this a negative.  beekeeping can be expensive.  selling honey offsets some cost, even for the hobby beekeeper.  it tastes good and honey makes a nice gift (or bribe).

the consideration should go to the care of the bees, not the style of beekeeping.  any bunch of beekeepers, even using the same equipment, will have different styles of beekeeping.

if top bar is what you have chosen to do, that's great.  there is a section here on top bar hives and people who keep them that will be happy to help you out.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2010, 08:43:00 PM »

I would like to ask WHY you take the stand you do?

I think TBH is no more "natural" than a Langstroth. You can use natural comb in both, with the main difference of one being vertical and the other horizontal.

I guess if we are going to have this discussion, I might as well add some fair and balanced comments detailing my own thoughts as to the pro and cons of the TBH.

I originally added my page to the website for the sole purpose in response to the narrow-minded viewpoint that those solely promoting TBH's give. I love TBH beekeeping, but detest the single point promotion of what some think as a "this or that" approach to beekeeping on general terms.

Here is an unbiased look at TBH's.... http://www.bjornapiaries.com/topbarbeekeeping.html

I would be more than willing to discuss any individual area in regards to keeping TBHs, but I ask that your details include more than the broad strokes you thus far have offered.

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« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2010, 09:19:24 PM »

Looks like this fellow is playing this game on both boards !

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248542

How to make friends and influence people ??

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« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2010, 09:50:31 PM »

Well, I've considered it, but I learned with the Langs and are happy with them.  No more or less natural than TBH unless the bees happened to find a cavity in a tree laying down versus one still standing.  The bees don't care.  I've never had the opportunity and need to build one.

I'm just a hobbyist, and Langs are easier for me because they are the most popular (for a reason!) and therefore equipment is exchangeable and readily available.  And better because I can get more bees and more honey.

Unless you are absolutely convinced that TBH's are better and are going to tell us we all need to change to them and how stupid we are if we don't, then you can put the flame suit away, because there's always more than one right way to do something if one has different expectations.

Rick
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« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2010, 10:24:06 PM »

horse and wagon=TBH
Automobile=langstroth

oil lamps and candles=TBH
Electricity=Langstroth

Loincloth=TBH
Sewn clothing=Langstroth

It just depends on whether you want to live in the ice age or modern day times.
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bigbearomaha
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« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2010, 07:19:08 AM »

another fine example of how individual opinions are just that...opinions and nothing more.  like you were told on bee source... use what works for you and keep going.

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« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2010, 08:12:01 AM »

Wow, you just got to love these guys that have five minutes worth under their belt and all of a sudden have all the answers. Opinionated as all get out and totally lacking respect for others. I just love these guys.
I find that they are quite entertaining as they are usually passionate individuals that either provide a glorious flame out or a humbling and sometimes humiliating crash landing. Either way pass the popcorn this could be fun to watch. LOL

Bheckel169, in spite of my morbid desire to see someone corkscrew it into the ground I am interested in hearing your points of view. Without rancor please delineate your opinions on TBH vs Langs there are several old hands of both styles on this forum and the resulting conversation could be very enlightening for all who love the ladies of the hive.

JMHO, but both styles have their place depending on one's goals (both hell, there are as many ways to keep bees in boxes AND keep them healthy as there are beeks).
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« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2010, 08:34:44 AM »

It just depends on whether you want to live in the ice age or modern day times.
Modern times?  The Lang was introduced in 1851.  You know, back in the horse and wagon days.  grin   The real modern innovation was the movable frame.  Greek top bar hives from several thousand years ago had movable frames, and that was a real leap forward.  Langs are convenient for folks who want to move their hives frequently, but also involve more heavy lifting.   So I don't really see that the Langstroth hive is a modern "innovation" for home beekeepers.

I would agree that the Langstroth frame is an improvement over top bars.  The horizontal hives, such as Michael Bush builds, are a nice compromise that uses Langstroth frames in a horizontal array, giving the advantages of both systems.  If your hives are intended to be stationary, I would say this is the "modern" hive.
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« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2010, 08:56:16 AM »

I got a 27 out of 50.  This isn't bad I think.  I just started learning about bees about 30 days ago and have watched 2 dvd's and am about a third of the way through "Beekeeping for Dummies". 
Bruce

After only 45 days of reading about beekeeping...you may want to hit the books again - WAY premature to come to any conclusions.
 
And then actually get some hives and bees.  Once you get some bees you may find that your ideas are affirmed, or you may find that you are wrong.  You may find that you have enough honey, or you may find that you want/need more.

Reading is great, but you don't really learn until you have a few of the "ladies" chasing you. Smiley

Rick
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« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2010, 08:59:50 AM »

"""another fine example of how individual opinions are just that...opinions and nothing more."""

Yes, Yes, and Yes.
It would be a boring world if we all thought the same.
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« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2010, 09:28:02 AM »

Quote
in spite of my morbid desire to see someone corkscrew it into the ground


may i have this please?   grin
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2010, 09:40:44 AM »

Since he already has all the answers to beekeeping.......  I am waiting for his views on combating varroa  grin
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« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2010, 11:44:32 AM »

Ok from a  read the books don't know squat about bees newbee. (aka me)
In my opinion.
 TBH more like what the bees did in the dark ages before domestication. from the opinion of some of the websites apparently helps them feel closer to there ancestors. 
TBH is far less expensive to start out with and requires less in equipment.  If your not concerned about maximum returns from your bees, just want your garden pollinated, like the thought of seeing bees do what bees do then a TBH is probably for you.

Lang, been the choice of non-pro and professionals for 150 + years, so able to purchase new and used equipment many places. (if your not into wood working this is a plus). Movable, if you don't own the property where your bees are located or may want to move them sometime in the future it is much easier with Langs. Langs lend them selves for top honey production. the bees don't spend time manufacturing comb and can put the time and resources into honey production.

there is a lot of opinion about both sides of this issue with people beating the drum for both. as for me I'm thinking one of each.

Eric
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« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2010, 11:59:42 AM »

Ok from a  read the books don't know squat about bees newbee. (aka me)
In my opinion.
 TBH more like what the bees did in the dark ages before domestication. from the opinion of some of the websites apparently helps them feel closer to there ancestors. 

Eric

Pooping in the woods and wiping with poison oak leaves would make me feel closer to mine too I suppose but it doesn't make me want to do it  grin

I don't see how anyone who has partially read a book (not books) and watched a video or two suddenly becomes an authority of one style of hive versus another. I'm a first year beekeeper myself but I wouldn't dare draw a line in the sand with obviously more experienced beeks. This guy doesn't even own 'a' bee.

Back to the ancestral feelings of honeybees, I think that's a little deep. Maybe I can partially read a book on Bee Physcology and come back here and call the whole forum out on it.
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« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2010, 01:09:26 PM »

K9 as I said in my opening it is my opinion of the pluses of both types of hives I was trying to answer his question. I try not to flame anyone.

As far as the psychology of bees, I think bees are happy when they are healthy and doing what bees do aka make honey.  I was paraphrasing some of the gurus of TBH on the net who feel that a tbh will make the bees happier healthier and cure their athlete's foot. and I guess my mild sarcasm didn't make it off the page.

As far as disease resistance etc. superiority of TBH I will wait for a conclusive study on langs vs TBH from a major university before I buy the hype one way or another.

Eric
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« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2010, 01:35:09 PM »

Okay, I haven't addressed either style so I shall attempt to do so with one caveat. I have zero experience with TBH and my Lang experience is over two decades old. But my main qualifier is the aforementioned past experience with the ladies and current experience for the past six years of removing honeybees from structures and assorted cavities. So break out the salt block and take it for what it's worth.
Bees left to their own devices will establish colonies in a broad range of cavities ranging from true vertical, if there is such a thing in nature, to true horizontal and anything in between. Personally, I believe they select as much by volume as anything else but as anyone who has seen an exposed nest knows sometimes they just get it wrong altogether! Now that said the bees do have a unidirectional mode of construction using the one constant of the universe, GRAVITY. Comb is always built on the vertical and all nest activities are dictated by that constant. Through the years various suppositions and theories have been put into use through various and sundry hive designs with each in turn holding various claims to fame for the benefit of the bees or more correctly the beek. Just as many have sought to better the situation for the bees or beek through hive design so to have the methods of keeping evolved for the betterment of keeper and kept and that IMHO is where the issues lie between the TBH and Lang. Neither design is inherently "wrong" in the eyes of the bees, history shows the adaptability of the bee in natural form will allow them to reside in almost anything we provide. It is more in the methodology we use in the manipulation to our needs that can effect the well being of the hive residents.
 
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« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2010, 01:45:15 PM »

ducks fan....hmmmm, could be a problem!   Wink   evil

since our original poster has not bothered to come back here or the other site, i am going to assume it was a drive by.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2010, 02:19:44 PM »

ducks fan....hmmmm, could be a problem!   Wink   evil

since our original poster has not bothered to come back here or the other site, i am going to assume it was a drive by.

Perhaps he trying to read a few more pages or find a video to prove his point???
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bigbearomaha
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« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2010, 03:02:58 PM »

 I think bees just fill space.

they fill either a primarily vertical space or a primarily horizontal space irregardless.

They pretty much always start at the top of a void with a single 'central' comb and draw it vertically downward.  Then, if there is space on either side of the first comb, they draw comb horizontal to that until there is no more space to fill horizontally and continue to draw the comb downwards on all combs until there is no more space left.

depending the shape and direction of the void they built the nest in, determines their movement and storing of resources.  this then determines the direction they move in when in a winter situation and the cluster needs to move  either upwards to stores above the area they are in or they move horizontally in the direction of the food that was stored in the combs to the side of the area they started the cluster in.

We have seen and observed plenty of situations where feral bees have been removed from both vertical nests in walls of buildings and in trees, etc and we have seen feral bees removed from horizontal locations such as roofs and ceilings and underneath eaves.    JP has posted a great selection of videos with exactly these scenarios.  All of them "naturally" selected by feral honey bees. They were not placed there by a beekeeper.

given this willingness to locate themselves in either vertical or horizontal nesting places,  I don't think it is unreasonable for a beekeeper to find success with either type of beekeeper chosen hive.

It simply becomes more important for the beekeeper to learn methods and measures that will best support the colony in that environment.

This un-necessary "competition" between hive types and methods is kind of silly because there is no universal law of only one way of beekeeping.  It's simple enough to decide if you like something and then do it.  equally, if you don't agree with something, don't do it.

Why try to change others methods when you are free to choose your own?



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« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2010, 06:31:17 PM »

Lets give this guy a chance.I know he did not come in on the right foot,not caring if he stirred up a hornets nest If he spends a little more time he he may find out we can rationally discuss the pros and cons of top bar versus langstroth.
 It may be easier to convince him of this if we don't instantly raise our shields and be prepared to go on the offensive. I noticed his post was made kind of late last night,so it may yet not be his time of day to return to the forum.
And i am also sure he will find out some things as I did,number one being that publishers never mention that the bees don't read the books and often do different than what the book says.
 
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« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2010, 07:51:57 PM »

ducks fan....hmmmm, could be a problem!   Wink   evil


Its a major problem, I am living here in Husky territory and they keep stopping by and peeing on my tires.  tongue As your an Oregonian you may be a Beaver Fan, well they're my second favorite team. (my third favorite is who ever is playing usc). I graduated from Southern Oregon State in Ashland.  but nobody cares who the raiders are playing (not even a large percentage of campus)  I will for the most part keep my cheering to myself and to paraphrase Rodney King, Lets all get along.   grin
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« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2010, 07:58:45 PM »

my youngest graduated from OSU.  he is a major sports fan and a very little of it has rubbed off on mom.  i promise not to hold it against you!  i am more apt to be cheering for Navy anyway.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2010, 08:54:37 PM »

Some people are BEEKEEPERS and others are BEE OWNERS  rolleyes

and others keep  beat a dead horse BEES FROM THIER ARM CHAIRS beat a dead horse

edward  tongue
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« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2010, 10:53:46 PM »

Some people are BEEKEEPERS and others are BEE OWNERS  rolleyes

and others keep  beat a dead horse BEES FROM THIER ARM CHAIRS beat a dead horse

edward  tongue

I would except I don't have an armchair next to my observation hive!!! tongue  But I do beekeep from a somewhat less comfortable chair, sometimes   grin.
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« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2010, 11:20:56 PM »

I have a bow and arrow that I love to hunt with.  Is it the most efficient way to put food on the table?  No.  Is it fun?  Yes.  Does it work?  Yes.  I also have several nice high powered rifles that I love to hunt with.  Is it the most efficient way to put food on the table?  Probably not, since I can work a few hours and make enough money to buy more food than spending the same time hunting, but it's much more efficient than the bow.  Do I still use the bow?  Yes.

I have about 200 Langstroth hives and currently have bees in three top bar hives (although I own a few more that don't happen to have bees in them at the moment).  Do I enjoy them both?  Yes.  But I wouldn't put the top bar hives in an outyard because I couldn't manage them well there.
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« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2010, 07:52:19 AM »

my youngest graduated from OSU.  he is a major sports fan and a very little of it has rubbed off on mom.  i promise not to hold it against you!  i am more apt to be cheering for Navy anyway.

kathy...don't do this to me.... Cry

You talk the talk, and say so many things that I agree with. And in my little world, I think your some gun toting, bodacious twenty something hot mama. This whole "My youngest graduated from OSU" is really blowing this all away.  lau

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« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2010, 05:17:10 PM »

I am still learning, lots. Something that has happened to me a couple of times. I will have a hive that builds a lot of burr comb and I do mean lots. I try to have all of my hives point east for the morning sun. The hives that have a lot of burr comb I turn and point south, the burr comb stops. I live in an area that has cold weather from the middle of Oct. to the end of May. We have had snow in September (my birthhday) and Mothers day in May. I have bees that fly in 40 degree weather and bring in pollen. I have bees for the honey.Still trying to make money?  Tony
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« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2010, 01:01:03 PM »

I'm a supernewbee- still studying for hopefully next year maybe setting up my first hives. If we can get a property by then and settle in, and that's a big if right now.

I'm hoping to use both kinds. I want to start with a couple Langstroth.. But after a year or two, I want to have a top bar on the property as well. I figure it would be cool to work with both kinds of hives Smiley
Maybe many more years down the road, I will try out an observation hive too.
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« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2010, 04:27:02 PM »

ducks fan....hmmmm, could be a problem!   Wink   evil

since our original poster has not bothered to come back here or the other site, i am going to assume it was a drive by.

 Jerry

I was thinking the same thing
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« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2010, 05:21:34 PM »

Quote
And in my little world, I think your some gun toting, bodacious twenty something hot mama

sorry to destroy your fantasy, but it would be hot grandmama.  my youngest just turned 28  grin  i have two grandkids from the oldest, and i won't tell you how old he is  evil
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2010, 06:55:14 PM »

Still here, just enjoying the Thanksgiving holiday with my family.  I appreciate all of you who responded though as I've discovered there are some who always look for the negative in a post and attack the messenger.  I think I can handle this.  I did attempt this on several forums to try to get a consensus that I could measure.  I hit the motherlode with one forum which unfortunately turned into an internecine battle I hadn't planned on and for that I apologize.  I had no idea I could generate such hostility but fortunately, I also generated a lot of good advice and I thank you for that.  For those that saw the worst in me, I hope you'll be a little more tolerant.  I will be the first to tell you I have a huge learning curve ahead.  At one point I also thought about having one TBH and one Lang and I may still do that just to get the experience.

I belong to a lot of forums in different subject areas.  I always thought my BMW motorcycle forum was a tough crowd.  It doesn't hold a candle to these forums.  Somewhat chastened by the experience but still eager to learn about beekeeping, I think it's a worthwhile vocation or hobby.
Bruce 
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« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2010, 07:08:11 PM »

you seriously didn't expect the title and tone of your post would cause some to want to rearrange your parts?   grin  i'm glad you got useful info, but you can probably get really good info without begging folks to bash you up side the head!

welcome to beekeeping.  it's a contact sport!   evil
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2010, 07:09:55 PM »

Don't let the conversation deter ya Bheckel. But please come in open minded rather than start your first  post with 'I know i'm stirring a hornets nest"
We have a lot of people here that use the top bar hives. Most here will share the experiences positive or negative.We just strive to keep a friendly dialogue where sometimes we need to just agree to disagree.
 I hope you the best in your new hobby.And certainly one of each will let you decide which will work best for you! Good Luck!! And welcome to the forum. Smiley
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« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2010, 07:20:46 PM »

It's been an interesting experience.  In a couple of forums I got no flak at all.  They jumped right in to discuss the differences and it went very smoothly.  I started to take a quick metric and found that those on the forums who either have a lot of experience or at least post a lot; in fact, A Lot, were the most antagonistic.  I don't know whether it was because they've heard it so many times before or they just don't have any tolerance for opinions outside their experience.  In any case, it was an education.  I plan on reading, listening and absorbing everything I can and will pretty much just read the posts here.
Bruce
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« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2010, 08:17:33 PM »

Thank goodness..... rolleyes
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« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2010, 08:57:59 AM »

Anybody remember;

SgtMaj    huh

He's now a bee "expert" on one of the Green boards.

Bee-Bop

Go ahead and delete this post if you want, I just had to bring it up.   evil

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« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2010, 09:24:55 AM »

Okay, here's a thought. The general premise of the original post is that the langstroth hive is somehow detrimental to the well being of the honey bee then it must follow that the user of the langstroth design must not care for the well being of the honey bee. Well let's extrapolate that a bit. The lang is nothing more or less than one of the many end results of a centuries old quest for a way to contain the honey bee colony for the end result of harvesting honey. This quest began with the simple container whether it be pottery, log or skep and progressed to the first major breakthrough in the TBH and eventually to the concept of "beespace" and the langstroth. So the TBH is nothing more or less than the first major evolutionary step in the practice of harvesting honey from the honey bee.
Since lang keepers are interested in nothing more than harvesting honey and the TBH is but merely a step in that direction would that not make the TBH just as equally or maybe more culpable in this human induced "assault" on the honey bee?
Just a thought.

To continue, is it the "exploitation" of the honey bee that drives this thread and if so wouldn't that make any human intervention tbh or lang equally "wrong"?   
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« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2010, 12:52:19 PM »

Okay, here's a thought. The general premise of the original post is that the langstroth hive is somehow detrimental to the well being of the honey bee then it must follow that the user of the langstroth design must not care for the well being of the honey bee. Well let's extrapolate that a bit. The lang is nothing more or less than one of the many end results of a centuries old quest for a way to contain the honey bee colony for the end result of harvesting honey. This quest began with the simple container whether it be pottery, log or skep and progressed to the first major breakthrough in the TBH and eventually to the concept of "beespace" and the langstroth. So the TBH is nothing more or less than the first major evolutionary step in the practice of harvesting honey from the honey bee.
Since lang keepers are interested in nothing more than harvesting honey and the TBH is but merely a step in that direction would that not make the TBH just as equally or maybe more culpable in this human induced "assault" on the honey bee?
Just a thought.

To continue, is it the "exploitation" of the honey bee that drives this thread and if so wouldn't that make any human intervention tbh or lang equally "wrong"?   

Someone remind me to never play Scrabble against him.  grin
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« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2010, 12:59:31 PM »

If my thought process is correct,the TBH proliferates because of not having a need to follow any standard dimensions and it can be thrown together with almost any kind of readily available materials.
It does not need precision woodworking by any means. it can be something as simple as a barrel cut in half with top bars added and a cover thrown on top.
 And BHeckel169's  premise is correct that most langstroth hives are owned by commercial beekeepers or people wanting to maximize honey production.
  I have not had the experience to know if a TBH overwinters in northern climates as well as a langstroth does.
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« Reply #40 on: November 27, 2010, 01:11:35 PM »

I will be trying both this year and decide from there. This is something you can try also.
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« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2010, 01:20:16 PM »

bees will make a home in just about anything.  watch JP's videos if you have any doubt!  i think the major consideration should be picking what works best for you.  if you don't have a set up that works for you, your bees will suffer no matter what you put them in.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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