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Author Topic: Need to buy 3 nucs in North Carolina  (Read 1756 times)
Weeha
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« on: November 12, 2010, 08:36:12 PM »

Hi,

Am setting up my first three hives next spring.
Got everything but the bees.
I would like to get nucs.
Russian VSH or the like would be good am not too picky...
I live in Raleigh North Carolina.
Any suggestions about where I can order nucs would be helpful.

Thank You,
Weeha
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iddee
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« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2010, 10:48:00 PM »

http://www.ncagr.gov/plantindustry/plant/apiary/documents/PermitToSell2010.pdf
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tom
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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2010, 02:09:53 PM »

If you want i sell nucs in the late spring aound the middle of may till the middle of june i will be glad to help i will starttaking orders after x-mas u can pm me if you need to know more.



THOMAS YANCEY
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VolunteerK9
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« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2010, 02:14:19 PM »

I bought some packages from Orr Bee Supply located in Old Fort, NC . Their website is orrbeesupply dot com. They are a small woodenware shop and also offer packages and nucs. Great people to do business with.
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BjornBee
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« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2010, 11:46:39 AM »

Weeha,

Here is my thoughts on the "Permit to Sell" policy in North Carolina.

I had written this up after this past weekend where I chatted with some beekeepers. I was going to post this December 1, but figured a couple weeks early won't hurt.

http://www.bjornapiaries.com/beekeeperramblings.html

Take Care,
Mike
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iddee
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« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2010, 01:26:42 PM »

Your "thoughts" on the NC law is just that. They sound like a politician. Pick certain "truths" and arrange them so they give a totally false impression.

The 25.00 fee is for both instate and out-of-state sellers, not just out-of-state.  Instate sellers may sell up to 10 hives per year, or sell all they have if going out of business, without a permit.The fee is equal to or less than many state inspection fees. NC has free inspections. I would much rather pay 25.00 to sell all I want to sell, than to pay a 3 to 10 dollar fee to inspect every hive I have, not just the ones I sell.

As for inspecting within 60 days, I have my bees inspected at least once a year, sometimes more. I have NEVER waited more than a week after calling and requesting an inspection. Most times the inspector is here within 72 hours.
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« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2010, 01:52:45 PM »

iddee,

The truth is the truth no matter the arrangement.  grin

Besides being wrong on your "sell all you want" comments, you miss the point.

North Carolina is the only state that charges outside bee breeders a fee to ship INTO the state. While you may think that having others pay your state fees so you conveniently do not have too, it is a bit twisted on the leftist side of things.

Every breeder with certification from their own state already pays for their own certificate, inspections, and overhead. Why North Carolina has your attitude, that you should double dip by forcing others to pay again for the privilege of shipping a queen to North Carolina is fundamentally wrong. And yes, that is my open and free market attitude of what I believe. Less government control, less taxes or "fees" and the ability to conduct business without protective "tarriffs" between states. Sorry if you feel different.

Don't get upset with me, when you openly advocate ME paying YOUR state fees, to lower your costs, by assuming with my money you do not want to pay for inspections. I think others who are being affected by this fee, should have any voice they want in the matter. You sound very defensive that is for sure.

My point was that if EVERY state had your state's laws, it would be very detrimental to small operations and micro-breeders. They would be assessed over a thousand dollars to get certificates from every potential state that they may have business. (In North Carolina, you need to pay the fee for "Marketing" before you even make a sale.) Maybe you don't get the business side of the equation. But perhaps you can think in bigger pictures than just your own.

But don't get upset. I'm just stating fact. I know it's hard for those being protected in the "boys club" to see what others are saying from the outside.  rolleyes
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iddee
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« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2010, 02:59:49 PM »

"Besides being wrong on your "sell all you want" comments, you miss the point."

OK. Up to 50 hives.

Now, think about enforcement. I can order a package or a queen from you today and nothing will stop them from getting to me. The reason for the permit is in case I have a problem with the order. If I order from someone who isn't permitted, the state won't help me solve the problem. If I buy from a permitted breeder, the state will come to my assistance.

Knowing the proficiency and pay rates of governmental employees, even on the state level, I doubt the 25.00 even covers the expense of issuing the permit, but it helps keep folks honest when dealing with NC customers.

No, I'm not upset with you, but I do think you gave an unbalanced report on my state. You know by now you can't upset me. I just wish the reverse were true.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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BjornBee
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« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2010, 07:10:19 AM »

"Besides being wrong on your "sell all you want" comments, you miss the point."

OK. Up to 50 hives.

Now, think about enforcement. I can order a package or a queen from you today and nothing will stop them from getting to me. The reason for the permit is in case I have a problem with the order. If I order from someone who isn't permitted, the state won't help me solve the problem. If I buy from a permitted breeder, the state will come to my assistance.

Knowing the proficiency and pay rates of governmental employees, even on the state level, I doubt the 25.00 even covers the expense of issuing the permit, but it helps keep folks honest when dealing with NC customers.

No, I'm not upset with you, but I do think you gave an unbalanced report on my state. You know by now you can't upset me. I just wish the reverse were true.

I am greatly disappointed with your new position of supported and supposedly needed enforcement by government in the matters of business between a seller and buyer.

If I read this right, it goes like this....

1) For safety sake of the buyers within North Carolina, the state maintains sellers lists.
2) The buyers in the state have willingly agreed and support, in exchange for government security and intervention, the loss of buyer freedoms and buy only from prepared and approved lists.

I guess my questions would be...

1) What brought about the need for this? I don't see this same limitation in buyer freedoms in other states in exchange for government control.
2) Are the buyers in North Carolina actually just stupid, lazy, or just willing to be allowed to be told where to buy, who to buy from, etc? In all the other states, natural forces of supply and demand, marketing, and the dealings of business, play out. Bad suppliers are called out, suffer from bad PR, etc.

So is this the operating procedure for all things being sold to North Carolina folks? Or is this government protection only afforded to helpless beekeepers? How many beekeepers were getting ripped off that facilitated this needed restrictions to the North Carolina beekeeping community?

I think when any group looks to the government for solving their problems, limitation, restrictions, and negative impacts are felt in many areas.

People in North Carolina, from what you are suggesting, openly and gladly exchange your rights to buy from any person you want to in the country, in exchange for the security of not being ripped off.

I of course buy none of this.  grin

The state easily could maintain a list of sellers, who are properly inspected and licensed in their own state, without fees. The 9 operations that paid the $25 dollars comes to $225 dollars. I agree the fees are paying for nothing. But the collection of $225 dollars, allows the state to dictate for every beekeeper in North Carolina, who and from where to buy. If I lived in North Carolina, I would be appalled.

Liberty, freedom to conduct business, and individual responsibility, are key to my thinking. I do not look to the government to maintain approved lists and dictate who I can buy from. And I am saddened to hear that this is the reasoning for limiting the freedoms of buyers in North Carolina. I know I will never willingly give my approval to such a thing in exchange for some perceived protection from the government.

Some talk the talk....but many fewer actually walk the walk.  Wink
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G3farms
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« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2010, 07:28:56 AM »

BJ....just how should it be set up, lets just say you could make the rules and laws of the buying and selling of queens, packages, nucs and the transport of bees...........instate and across state lines.

I like reading most of your replies because they make a fella think (not sure what about some times lol), but what would you do to make it a better playground for the beeks and the states?
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tecumseh
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« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2010, 07:30:10 AM »

Bjorn writes:
The truth is the truth no matter the arrangement.

tecumseh:
evidently some folks have a SOFT definition of 'the truth'.

then Bjorn writes:
I think when any group looks to the government for solving their problems, limitation, restrictions, and negative impacts are felt in many areas.

tecumseh:
I must guess you missed the old lesson of 'who is to guard us againist the guardians'Huh

evidently Bjorn thinks in this case a state (North Carolina) has no right to protect it's own.

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BjornBee
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« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2010, 09:13:54 AM »

BJ....just how should it be set up, lets just say you could make the rules and laws of the buying and selling of queens, packages, nucs and the transport of bees...........instate and across state lines.

I like reading most of your replies because they make a fella think (not sure what about some times lol), but what would you do to make it a better playground for the beeks and the states?

G3,
If I go off topic from your questions, this is not directed at you.  Wink

First, lets dismiss the pretense that beekeepers in North Carolina need "protection" from nasty queen providers in others states. There is no bases for this. And it seems beekeepers in other states can survive, grow, and deal with buying queens without "big Brother" dictating where and who you should buy. I think this whole denigrating of the North Carolina Beekeeper, is laughable. There are policies for trade that already exist.

If you think that each state should dictate the buyers preference with "seller lists", I ask you where does that stop? Should I be certified and pay a fee to each state to sell on EBay? Should every consumer good changing hands across state lines be regulated with individual "seller Fees"? Is this really what we want the government involved with?

Second, the answer is probably in the details of the other 49 states that do not charge "seller fees". Every other state has no "seller fees" and it seems the industry regulates itself with few problems. I have faith in the open marketing and intelligence of buyers, using such things as "buyer beware" smarts. Those that rip off consumers are usually out of business in short order. And any false perceived notion that the government will be able to step in and handle such matters is false from the start, and fundamentally flawed in my opinion.

Third, let's not confuse requirements of queens, nucs, packages, and transportation on hives for pollination. Each may require a different set of requirements.

It's not the details of the requirements. It's whole notion from the start that we NEED government to stand by, oversee, and dictate the buying tendencies from the start. I am amazed that some think we need such oversight and limitations as buyer, as seen in North Carolina.

We have no such seller fees in Pennsylvania. And I talk to hundreds if not thousands of beekeeper every year. And I do not see ANY need for such government policy as "seller fees".  And except for one guy out of Alabama a few years ago, I have not seen many problems. And nothing to suggest that we need "saved" by limiting our rights to buy from whoever we want too. Something the honest folks of North Carolina have given up.

Can you imagine that every consumer good you order from another state would require the seller to be on a maintained state "sellers" list and pay fees. Before you order a pair of shoes, a gift basket for the holidays, or bee equipment from a bee supply company, that you would be required to check the state listing to see if you could....by LAW!

I honestly thought beekeepers were more open minded and freedom loving folks than perhaps I gave them credit for. I guess I am wrong. No wonder this country is in the mess it is. We look to government to maintain lists and tell us what we can buy as consumers. What a concept.
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iddee
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« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2010, 10:27:43 AM »

I think it's more:
If you want my help when you have trouble, go by my recommendations.
If you don't heed my advice, buy at your own risk. Don't ask me for help when you get shafted.

As I said before, I can buy from whoever I please. The shipment won't be stopped.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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BjornBee
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« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2010, 11:44:11 AM »

I think it's more:
If you want my help when you have trouble, go by my recommendations.
If you don't heed my advice, buy at your own risk. Don't ask me for help when you get shafted.

As I said before, I can buy from whoever I please. The shipment won't be stopped.
iddee,
North Carolina has a very good network of county associations, state support, and beekeeper activity. And while this is all great, it also tends to be the source that I am sure is every beekeeper being very informed of the LAW as it pertains to who is and who is not authorized to sell in North Carolina.

It clearly is not a list of "suggested" providers. It is a list of registered sellers, and it clearly states this as the law.

And whenever anyone from North Carolina asks about buying bees, this list is quickly provided, and presented as such. I know you did this in this thread.

Yes, you can order from who you want. And I guess you may get your bees. The law is not written to punish you. It is designed to go after sellers who do not have the certification to sell in the state. And it clearly punishes anyone NOT willing to pay for the right to sell in North Carolina. If you restrict access, marketing, or from being on "approved" lists, and you ARE punishing those outside the state, not willing to pay for the right.

Now I will say, this law probably carries little weight. Nobody is standing on the border looking for bees coming across. That is why I see it more of a "good old boys" network.
The real impact is the lack of promotion from anyone not being on the list. And the informing of new beekeepers that "This is who you buy from!....and in fact, we have made it law."

Sorry iddee. I don't buy any of it. It protects nobody, it restricts business, and is bad policy. And as I said, if every state had this law, many smaller operations would be harmed. As it is, I could care less about selling to North Carolina. I'm grateful for the other 49 states that do not have these laws on the books. But that does not mean I will be quiet, and I will recommend others NOT to buy from North Carolina. If North Carolina can not promote free industry without "protectionism" laws and fees on the books, then I openly suggest beekeepers outside the state consider long and hard about buying from within North Carolina.

As I suggested to the North Carolina official last week, if North Carolina wants to be a major player in the bee industry moving forward (as he commented), this type of crap needs to stop. Because many others will be less than willing to support a state industry that turns around and restricts other states providers.

How about this.....every state adopting just those state requirements from North Carolina, but only applying them to North Carolina producers. Meaning in my state, as well as others, ONLY north Carolina producers would have to pay "seller fees" to the other states. My state would continue to allow other states to sell without additional fees or restrictions. So if you were a bee business in North Carolina, you would have to pay a fee to all the other states to sell. But if you were from Ohio, you could sell without those same fees. This is what North Carolina does, just on a smaller scale. But the premise is just as wrong.

As a side note....I would never think to call my state apiarist over a supplier not fullfilling a contract. I had a bad dealing a few years back, and honestly never thought of calling up the department of Agriculture to complain or ask them to get involved. Maybe that is the difference between you and me. I would never expect a conversation to the state to start "Hello, I paid for a queen and never received it. I want you to deal with it".  
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iddee
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« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2010, 01:59:08 PM »

OK.
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