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Author Topic: obama clear and transparent huh?  (Read 4421 times)
Jerrymac
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« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2010, 03:11:28 PM »

So as we have now been all over Iraq, where are the WMD?
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« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2010, 03:33:03 PM »

What wasn't used up on the Kurds were likely moved to Syria.
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« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2010, 03:53:50 PM »

that's the million dollar question, isn't it?  Wink

there are things we know.  we know from the UN reports that there are tons of material missing.  stuff they know he had, and is now gone.  we know there are no documents that tell what happened to this material.  this from a regime that was into documenting everything, including criminal acts.  we know that intel from Jordan had him with mobile WMD platforms.  this was the thing that concerned his neighbors the most.  we have some confirmed intel of convoys leaving iraq for Syria while we were messing around with the UN.  what was in them?  we don't know.  we have reports from those within the country of things being moved to the Bekaa valley, but no confirmation.  
we simply don't know.  he could have dumped the stuff in the sand and killed those who knew he'd had it done....

here's some of what we do know.  we know he had the material.  we know he had used it.  we know that he had tried to get nuclear material in the past.  we know from his scientists that they were instructed to keep the knowledge about making of WMD including nucs safe.  we know that they were closely monitored and kept from the UN inspectors when interviews were called for.  Saddam and his scientists claimed they intended/expected to re-start the WMD program without restrictions as soon as UN sanctions were lifted.  France, Germany, and Russia were behind the lifting of sanctions.  France, Germany, and Russia were selling prohibited items to Iraq and the bank in France that was to oversee the OFF money was laundering funds for those prohibited items...among other things.  we know that Saddam had LOTS of money because of these illegal operations.  we know that he was a financial supporter of terrorists in the "Palestinian" territories, and there is evidence that AQ members had been in and out of Iraq and had met with high ranking Iraqi military.  he engaged in genocide not only against the Kurds, but other ethnic groups in Iraq.

it would have been better for all if Bush 1 had finished the job.  thank you again, UN and Powell.  it would have  been second best if BC had gone in and done the job under the terms of the cease fire of '91.  if you read what BC said about Saddam and what congress published in '98, he had every justification for going back.  it would have been better this time to have skipped the UN instead of giving the guy and year to harden defenses and screw around with the inspectors......again

the good thing is that a whole bunch of AQ came to iraq to be killed so that we did not have to chase them out of caves.  it's also a great place for us to have a base of operations in the middle east.  if there is any country in the middle east that has a chance of joining with the moderate Arab and Persian countries, it is Iraq.  
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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AllenF
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« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2010, 04:08:40 PM »

In 1000 years, there will be some goat farmer out there digging a well to water his family and going to end up killing a lot of people when he hits a buried stash of the chemical weapons buried in the sands out there.
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kathyp
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« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2010, 04:29:16 PM »

he buried jets.  what's a few WMD?   grin
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2010, 04:45:14 PM »

Here is a 75 foot long 25 ton mig.   They have found 30 different aircraft at an airfield in Irag.   

The only reason it was found is because it was not dropped into a hole.  They just piled dirt on top of it at the airfield. If you had a truck of chemical weapons, how easy would that be to drive into the desert and bury it in a hole?  I am pretty sure that chemical weapons are still out there somewhere.
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tecumseh
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« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2010, 07:43:14 AM »

JerryMac writes:
Saddam was reportedly to have biological and/or chemical weapons that could kill people in large areas like cities.

But Saddam was only saying that he had them to keep Iran from invading.

tecumseh:
Well I do think you have those details correct.   Scott Ritter (I think the name is correct) was an ex marine, UN weapon's inspector who very early on explained to folks why there were NO WMD in Iraq.  Given that Mr Ritter was a self described Republican it is difficult to understand how some folks (like Fox NEWs for example) went to such effort to demean his reputation.  Seems some folks will allow pretty extreme behavior by anyone that pushes their own political agenda.

From there you can move to the Valarie Plame/Joseph Wilson affair.  I guess this entire event should have suggest to a lot of folks the the WMD was pure fabrication and that anyone that got in the way of this LIE would be run over with a truck.  I think I should not need to mention that this was in fact a CRIME for which no one was been held responsible.   So much for the idea of a nation of laws and not men. 
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2010, 10:20:58 AM »

It is a shame we don't have chemical sniffing dogs. Or ground penetrating radar. Or thermal imaging devises. Or metal detectors. Or seismic equipment. Or.....

I would think that there is someone that would know where this stuff is buried or moved to if it had such done to it. And now that the guy is dead they would have no fear coming forward with the info. 
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kathyp
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« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2010, 10:24:25 AM »

you seem not to be very familiar with either Ritter or the so called "Plame affair".  

after the Ritter teams were kicked out of Iraq in '98 he agitated for the admin and the UN to hold Saddam to the cease fire agreement.  he also wrote and spoke a number of times about his belief that even if Saddam didn't have WMD at the moment, he had every intention and the ability to reconstitute his WMD programs without problem.  he was not part of the later Blix/ElBaradei teams that wrote the damning reports about Saddams missing materials and his lack of cooperation, including keeping key scientists from interviews.
Ritter did believe that Saddam no longer had WMD, but he believed it with no proof.  how foolish would it have been to take only his word when all else disagreed with him?  it became apparent that his main objection was to war.  fair enough.  no one likes war.

the only part of the Plame thing that has any bearing on this are the Wilson reports.  the report he gave to congress seems to have been substantially different than the report he gave later to the press.  we don't know all of what he said because there is no unredacted congressional report available.  whatever he reported to congress led them to believe that there was the possibility of a Niger/Iraq connection.  
regardless, this report had little to do with the decision to go to war.  it would have been a small footnote if not for Wilson's search for fame, and his wife's later claim of being "outed" by the admin.
the latter proved to be false, and when all was said and done, it might have been Wilson and plame that should have been indited for perjery.....sadly, that did not happen.

so, you made small arguments.   neither of these cases would have made a ripple in the pond at the time except for massive left wing press pressure.  neither had much to do with the larger picture. neither had anything to do with the reports from the UN inspection teams.  
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2010, 10:29:05 AM »

jerrymac, i don't know how Saddam did things, but we do know how other nutball dictators have operated.  they make sure that info is compartmentalized so that no one has the big picture.  everyone only has a tiny bit of info.  they also kill everyone that has info and are not needed in the future.

for instance, you send a team out to dump your wmd so that the inspectors don't get you, then you kill the guys that dumped the wmd so that  no one knows you dumped it.  the odd thing is that most of they guys, saddam included, keep very detailed records.  there are no records to go with the disposition of the WMD.  that's out of character and worth some interest.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Keith13
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« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2010, 10:59:34 AM »

So as we have now been all over Iraq, where are the WMD?

Syria
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2010, 03:22:54 PM »

So they are normally anal about paper work but in this case there isn't any. Hum. How dare we think there were no WMDs.

I was really going more on what I heard about SH's trial. I thought that is where I heard about keeping the idea of WMDs because of Iran.
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rainbow sunflower  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.   rainbow sunflower

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kathyp
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« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2010, 03:57:26 PM »

Quote
So they are normally anal about paper work but in this case there isn't any. Hum. How dare we think there were no WMDs

except we have documentation of the existence of the material.  it's just what happened to them that no one knows.

no doubt he wanted iran to believe he had them.  he was very paranoid about iran.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
AllenF
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« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2010, 04:22:02 PM »

He wanted everybody to think he had tons of the stuff.  And he would have used every bit of the stuff that he could get a hold of.
Just look at what he did use against Iran and even his own people and what WMD were destroyed after the first gulf war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_chemical_warfare
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_poison_gas_attack

So everybody knows he had them.   Just where are they is the $64,000 question.  Destroyed or buried in the sand.   I am voting for the sand.  I think gold, cash, people, or the technology for weapons made it into Syria on the trucks.  And the trucks may be buried in the sand in Syria. 
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tecumseh
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« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2010, 08:51:00 AM »

missy misinformation writes:
how foolish would it have been to take only his word when all else disagreed with him?

tecumseh:
first... no it really ain't a million dollar question, it is more like a Trillion Dollar question.

well Mr Ritter was IN FACT correct.  the Ritter story is not exactly like you describe (this must be Fox New's excuse for devaluing Mr Ritter's informed opinion??).  'All else disagreed' evidently means YOU didn't believe his analysis of chemical and biological weapons* in Iraq.  sadly one needs only read the past few responses to see exactly who sucked up 'the media' Fox News various justification for promoting this war.     

the wilson/plame affair does suggest how far some folks in power will go to twist information to gain their own ends.  They made large sums of money in this shell game and you get to pick up the tab. 

I have yet to hear more than one self proclaimed conservative take some responsibility for this debacle.  His plea of culpability does mean I now read his writing with a bit more attention.


*it should be mentioned here that the chemical and biological weapons that Iraq did have were acquired almost exclusively from us, so the sum total of what had been there was fairly well known.  there is nothing to suggest that Iraq had any extensive capability to create these weapons on their own without significant help from elsewhere.

as Allen F seems to suggest Saddam was playing a pretty serious game and any suggestion by him that he had no chemical or biological weapons would have opened him up to confrontation with Iran.  Some folks contention that Saddam prove he had none is a logical stretch.  Unlike Allen F's final analysis there are no chemical or biological weapons buried in the sands of Iraq, nor were these delivered to Syria (I guess someone forgot the implementation of the northern and southern no fly zones).  Beyond those weapon found by UN inspector the remainder can be simply explained (Mr Ritter's description) by the effect of time on chemical and biological weapons (they inherently deterioriate with time).     
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kathyp
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« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2010, 10:01:53 AM »

hey tech, it's ok not to know everything about everything.  i know it puts you out of sorts and you want to be rude, but we understand.

i will confess to having some advantage over you on this subject.  i also have, somewhere, many hours of reading cataloged.  UN reports, testimony to congress, congressional reports, open source intel, and a pretty good list of books.  

do want to thank you.  you have managed to be a little more entertaining than the average lib.  in the end, you all come to the same place.   grin

just as an aside, as i believe that character matters:  http://articles.cnn.com/2010-01-15/justice/un.inspector.ritter.arrest_1_weapons-inspector-web-camera-police-officer?_s=PM:CRIME

and what is this?  the third time?  
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2010, 09:28:33 PM »

WMD in Iraq.   
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1653841/posts

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/world/iraq-sarin-stockpiles-found/story-e6frfkui-1111112124958

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120268,00.html

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/5/17/170427.shtml

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html

One shell is a weapon of mass destruction. 
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tecumseh
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« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2010, 08:14:58 AM »

kathyp writes:
hey tech, it's ok not to know everything about everything.  i know it puts you out of sorts and you want to be rude, but we understand.

tecumseh:
uh huh....  the pot says while calling the kettle black. 

I am not 'the out of sorts' type with which you seem to be soooo comfortable.  as uneasy as this may make some folks feel... at my age I do pretty much know what I know and fairly well understand what I don't. 

then mizz kath writes:
do want to thank you.  you have managed to be a little more entertaining than the average lib.

tecumseh:
unlike some (evidently) I have never felt especially compelled to attach myself to any group.  the inverse does seem to be the most notable trend of our current time... that is group id is more important than knowing yourself.

although liberal might be fine if the word infers liberating?

I however don't mind tossing out stuff (some of with which I don't necessarily agree) just to entertain all you yankee beekeepers during this season of wooo...

I see you did the character assin thingee on Mr Ritter.  Seems that story is about a year old... so what was the final outcome?  No matter how it did turn out, it does not reduce the truth that Mr Ritter's informed opinion about WMD was in fact correct.

At this time I do suspect (based on various post) you are an excellent beekeeper and that for me is much more important than you political leanings.  Like yourself character (you know the real stuff and not that stuff manufactured by media or promotion) should matter.  Likely just a naive notion I have always tried to maintain. 
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kathyp
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« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2010, 10:08:40 AM »

not an excellent beekeeper, just working on it.  i have heard you are a good beekeeper also.  whatever our political leanings, beekeeping is a separate thing  smiley

on the Ritter matter:  i believe this is the 3rd time he's been caught at this.  once you could question and perhaps excuse as a mistake.  3 times, and caught in a sting, maybe no excuse for that.

i do not know the particulars. wikipedia only lists 2 arrest, but i though there were 3.  
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #39 on: November 18, 2010, 08:21:29 AM »

I wondered about your third time comment.  I thought perhaps I had missed a link listed by you for the third time.  Went looking and found nothing there, so your last comment fills in the void.

Caught is not the same thing as conviction (which is what I kind of asked in the 'final outcome' question).  The american tradition would suggest innocent until proven guilty. 

No I am not a good beekeeper... I am god's most imperfect beekeeper.  Some folks do seem to think I have a talent for the caring of the bees.  I suspect it is more like a skilled honed by popping large numbers of tops for a long period of time over a broad area of the country.  I do appreciate comments (by others in regards to beekeeping) that do not make beekeeping look a bit too much like alchemy.   

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