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Author Topic: obama clear and transparent huh?  (Read 4212 times)
Keith13
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« on: November 10, 2010, 01:37:12 PM »

http://www.2theadvocate.com/news/107046624.html

seems the drilling ban was politically motivated,  he choose politics over scince. Now what was it he said when running for office his presidency would be clear and transparent yeah right more like clear and present danger. This clown was on a witch hunt of the oil industry from the get go, BP was a blessing to him.

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« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2010, 02:56:39 PM »

Wasn't the "drilling moratorium" overturned in court and they simply answered that with something like "we ban the overturning"?
I'm pretty sure I got the specifics mixed up on this one, but anyone who knows what really went with that straighten me out please.
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« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2010, 08:17:55 PM »

From what I gathered from the evening news tonight there is an uproar over the Obama administration changing the wording of the report by Obama's appointed scientific board, in order to support the administration's moratorium. Business as usual; if you don't like the results you get, then order another study, or just reword it to fit your agenda. The scientists and other experts are the wrong folks to mess with on something like this though. It's very unlikely that these types will change the report they assemble in order to please a political minion; reputations in the scientific community are at risk.
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« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2010, 08:28:08 PM »

I think I'm feeling another conspiracy theory coming on!

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« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2010, 08:33:53 PM »

He had to do that.   Without changing it, all the people would question why he was doing that instead of just half the people.  He doesn't want oil drilling.   He wants to look green.   He hates big business.  He hates all private run companies.  So he had to change a few things to shut down the drilling.   
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« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2010, 07:27:28 AM »

keith writes:
seems the drilling ban was politically motivated,  he choose politics over scince.

tecumseh:
that is what one politician from Louisiana stated, but 'that' was not what the article said.  is this perhaps a politically slanted reading comprehension problem?

another keith snip:
Now what was it he said when running for office his presidency would be clear and transparent

tecumseh:
well you are reading this article posted in Quebec so something must be transparent.  NO you do not have Dick Cheney making some decision in some back room, placing the presidential stamp on HIS idea, and then hiding behind the mantel of president to keep everyone from knowing why or how some decision was made.

since the oil companies in the gulf made up their own rules (under the Bush administration) and then decided not to follow these, how could any reasonable person suggest that the operation of the deep drilling rigs (which I think is all the ban limited) should not be reviewed?  how anyone could review the history of the oil industry (which basically conforms to the history of all extraction type businesses) and trust that crowd is just beyond my understanding. 

I love these over the top statements like... 'He doesn't want oil drilling.   He wants to look green.  He hates big business.  He hates all private run companies.'

I guess some folks recognize no human capacity but hate or it does seems to be utilized in their dialogue so often that one wonders... 'what's going on there'.

Personally I would like the oil biz'ness to have a little less sway over my life here... but being this is Texas that ain't likely to happen.  Anyone that would vote or send some oil company person to office must enjoy being fleeced. 
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« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2010, 08:07:29 AM »


Tecumseh writes  rolleyes

since the oil companies in the gulf made up their own rules (under the Bush administration) and then decided not to follow these, how could any reasonable person suggest that the operation of the deep drilling rigs (which I think is all the ban limited) should not be reviewed?  

That is not what I said. If you want to review the rules  have the ba...  guts,  to say "as president I want to review the rules". Lets avoid changing scientific studies to meet your political agenda, that almost smells like global warming.

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« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2010, 08:09:44 AM »

From what I gathered from the evening news tonight there is an uproar over the Obama administration changing the wording of the report by Obama's appointed scientific board, in order to support the administration's moratorium. Business as usual; if you don't like the results you get, then order another study, or just reword it to fit your agenda. The scientists and other experts are the wrong folks to mess with on something like this though. It's very unlikely that these types will change the report they assemble in order to please a political minion; reputations in the scientific community are at risk.

Have you heard of the global warming myth? Scientist  compromise themselves all the time to prove points.

Keith
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« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2010, 08:25:10 AM »

Of course....chapter 2, page 34, paragraph 2 subsection 1.234.....from the lefts playbook....BLAME IT ON BUSH!  lau

Bush had less time to overhaul all the poor security measures that made 9/11 happen. But I never heard Bush blame Clinton. Yet they entered the country, trained, planned, all under Clinton's administration.

Obama had more time to fix any needed problems in drilling....yet has been blaming Bush for this, and everything else for two years now.

When you can not back up, defend or justify actions on the left.....you pull out the playbook, open it up, and cry out "We had to do it this way. We had no option. It was Bush's fault!"  Wink

Of course this is just a clever side step away from the points already made about the deceitful, dishonest, non-transparent regime we have now in office.

Questions Obama's integrity....blame Bush

Questions some dishonest tactics...blame Bush.

And for extra measure when your really lacking a good response (like there ever was one  rolleyes )...throw in some comments about "Big Oil".

I'm glad the majority of folks are beyond falling for this crap.
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« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2010, 05:48:33 PM »



Bush has kept his mouth shut for the past couple of years and has not said anything about Obama or the way things are headed.  He did pass the first stimulus package right before Obama took office.   Clinton never really played quiet making big buck making speeches in such.
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« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2010, 05:55:20 PM »

Quote:
tecumseh:
well you are reading this article posted in Quebec so something must be transparent.  NO you do not have Dick Cheney making some decision in some back room, placing the presidential stamp on HIS idea, and then hiding behind the mantel of president to keep everyone from knowing why or how some decision was made.

Buzzbee: And I guess this is fact about Cheney. You do have the evidence,or perhaps reasonable facts for your opinion?
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« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2010, 08:07:04 AM »

buzzbee writes:
And I guess this is fact about Cheney. You do have the evidence,or perhaps reasonable facts for your opinion?

tecumseh:
I do wonder where some of my fellow citizens have been hanging out???  Perhaps Fox News where you can make a bet that 85% of the detail they think are fact are in fact absolutely incorrect. 

I guess you missed the Dick Cheney Energy Policy during the early years of the Cheney/Bush administration.  When folks wanted to see the notes on these various meeting (between dick, a lot of oil executives and believe this or not the Afganistan/Al Queda government in which they obtain something like 50 million dollars for something???).  Mr Cheney hid behind executive priviledge to keep the notes from those meeting from being reviewed.  There is a small note in 'the failed hunt for bin laden' (the book) which does make you wonder exactly what happened in those meeting.

This entire Energy Policy 'thingee' was created when California experienced a bit of an energy bump.  as it turns out the bump was manufacture by the same folks that BOUGHT you George and Dick. 

not opinion but I did notice that my fuel cost went from $1.25 per gallon to $5 per gallon during this totally oil purchased administration.  likely just a random event... or so my conservative brethren would seem to suggest.   
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« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2010, 08:52:21 AM »

I don't know. I think they are all crooks regardless of party affiliation. I don't blame all of our country's woes on Bush, but did it not strike anyone else odd that a Saudi took the credit for the WTC and so the U.S invaded Iraq? (cue conspiracy theory music) I fully believe in supporting our troops on whatever they are called to service on, but I really wasn't a fan of a pointless war that sank us deeper in debt. Nor was I real fond of paying $100 for a tank of diesel.
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« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2010, 09:05:17 AM »


tecumseh:
I do wonder where some of my fellow citizens have been hanging out???  Perhaps Fox News where you can make a bet that 85% of the detail they think are fact are in fact absolutely incorrect. 


It is always interesting when these arguments come up that those on the left side like to try to pile on Fox news.  CNN, MSNBC, CBS, NBC, etc fall into the same 85% category on the other side of the argument.  That makes the left 85% * 4 more absolutely incorrect.

Last time I checked the California energy bump was created by "enlightened" folk who were trying to "protect" "poor people" from "high energy prices" making it impractical to sell them that energy.

Random events?  No...supply, demand, taxes...attacks on american people unleashing a series of events.  Prices plummeted with the current administration, but that is only because a huge segment of the population could no longer afford gas.  With people on the left side saying that we should tax gas up to the $7/gallon level.  That's what our current administration would do if he thought he could get away with it.

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« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2010, 09:39:04 AM »

scads, good luck  grin 

our buddy above accuses conservatives of getting all our info from fox, then posts
Quote
which does make you wonder exactly what happened in those meeting.
  after posting conspiracy theory speculation straight off democrat.com and the Huff. 

hard to take that seriously. 

if you want to know where our energy policy really went over the cliff, look to the carter admin.  California is just full of a bunch of tree hugging kooks.....as are Oregon and Washington.  you only need to look at how they voted to see where they are headed.....i think close behind our energy policy smiley
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« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2010, 02:16:06 PM »

Gas will be $10 a gallon here in time.   Obama is devaluing the dollar.   Oil is valued with the dollar.  We import most of our oil.  So oil may stay the same in value but in dollars will soar skyward.

Also, how many people are behind Obama pulling his strings (or at least brainwashed him in college).   Bill Aryers, George Soros, or Vladimir Lenin from the grave?
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« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2010, 08:28:27 AM »

scads writes:
It is always interesting when these arguments come up that those on the left side like to try to pile on Fox news.  CNN, MSNBC, CBS, NBC, etc fall into the same 85% category on the other side of the argument.  That makes the left 85% * 4 more absolutely incorrect.

Last time I checked the California energy bump was created by "enlightened" folk who were trying to "protect" "poor people" from "high energy prices" making it impractical to sell them that energy.


tecusmeh:
well show me your data brother. 

the 85% number was in regards to weapons of mass destruction and why a great number of folks thought they had been found in Iraq even thought people of authority had stated flatly (again and again) that they had not been found (and were not going to be found... which some of us knew anyway).  cut to chase about 85% of this misinformed crowd got their information from fox news.  evidently some folks wish to be misinformed?

you also seemed to missed the direct involvement of Enron in the 'california energy crisis' (I might guess Fox News didn't follow that little story in great detail?).  I think the figure I noticed was Enron traders effectively bilked California energy consumer for about $9 billion dollars.  I am not certain how anyone could blame the 'do gooders' or poor folks for this shell game???  Quite plainly the California Energy Crisis was NOT.  It did push energy prices (of all forms) higher just as the economy was growing weaker (which in itself defies common economic logic... scad's supply and demand excuse I would guess).

and sorry to disappoint mizz kathyp I don't get my information from either democrat.com nor Huff (what ever that refers to).... I do however read books and on almost all occasions highly discount anything written on the net and when sources become predicable inaccurate (or project known bias) discount these also.  I also KNOW that conspiracies happen all the time (or at least that is what Adam Smith thought and what history suggest).  painting anyone and everyone into the conspiracy camp is a pretty weak ploy. 

Blame Jimmy Carter... now that's a bit of a stretch.  Kind of the right era for where we were led wrong... very sadly the wrong person to blame.

quite evidently (if the first rule of proper decision making is to be followed) the party of personal responsibility is NOT and by all evidence has never been.
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« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2010, 09:15:59 AM »

Would someone please explain to me what "weapons of mass destruction" really are? We had a couple of local hoodlums here arrested, AND CONVICTED, of possession of "weapons of mass destruction". They had a sawed off shotgun. Yet it is said Saddam, with all his missiles and military weapons, didn't have.
I just DO NOT understand.
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« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2010, 09:58:33 AM »

Would someone please explain to me what "weapons of mass destruction" really are? We had a couple of local hoodlums here arrested, AND CONVICTED, of possession of "weapons of mass destruction". They had a sawed off shotgun. Yet it is said Saddam, with all his missiles and military weapons, didn't have.
I just DO NOT understand.

A sawed off shotgun in a small room full of people can kill and maim a whole bunch of people in that room. Thus some will call it a WMD for the headlines.  rolleyes

Saddam was reportedly to have biological and/or chemical weapons that could kill people in large areas like cities.

But Saddam was only saying that he had them to keep Iran from invading.
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« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2010, 01:50:28 PM »

Tell that to the kurds. I doubt they will believe you.
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« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2010, 03:11:28 PM »

So as we have now been all over Iraq, where are the WMD?
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« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2010, 03:33:03 PM »

What wasn't used up on the Kurds were likely moved to Syria.
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« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2010, 03:53:50 PM »

that's the million dollar question, isn't it?  Wink

there are things we know.  we know from the UN reports that there are tons of material missing.  stuff they know he had, and is now gone.  we know there are no documents that tell what happened to this material.  this from a regime that was into documenting everything, including criminal acts.  we know that intel from Jordan had him with mobile WMD platforms.  this was the thing that concerned his neighbors the most.  we have some confirmed intel of convoys leaving iraq for Syria while we were messing around with the UN.  what was in them?  we don't know.  we have reports from those within the country of things being moved to the Bekaa valley, but no confirmation.  
we simply don't know.  he could have dumped the stuff in the sand and killed those who knew he'd had it done....

here's some of what we do know.  we know he had the material.  we know he had used it.  we know that he had tried to get nuclear material in the past.  we know from his scientists that they were instructed to keep the knowledge about making of WMD including nucs safe.  we know that they were closely monitored and kept from the UN inspectors when interviews were called for.  Saddam and his scientists claimed they intended/expected to re-start the WMD program without restrictions as soon as UN sanctions were lifted.  France, Germany, and Russia were behind the lifting of sanctions.  France, Germany, and Russia were selling prohibited items to Iraq and the bank in France that was to oversee the OFF money was laundering funds for those prohibited items...among other things.  we know that Saddam had LOTS of money because of these illegal operations.  we know that he was a financial supporter of terrorists in the "Palestinian" territories, and there is evidence that AQ members had been in and out of Iraq and had met with high ranking Iraqi military.  he engaged in genocide not only against the Kurds, but other ethnic groups in Iraq.

it would have been better for all if Bush 1 had finished the job.  thank you again, UN and Powell.  it would have  been second best if BC had gone in and done the job under the terms of the cease fire of '91.  if you read what BC said about Saddam and what congress published in '98, he had every justification for going back.  it would have been better this time to have skipped the UN instead of giving the guy and year to harden defenses and screw around with the inspectors......again

the good thing is that a whole bunch of AQ came to iraq to be killed so that we did not have to chase them out of caves.  it's also a great place for us to have a base of operations in the middle east.  if there is any country in the middle east that has a chance of joining with the moderate Arab and Persian countries, it is Iraq.  
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« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2010, 04:08:40 PM »

In 1000 years, there will be some goat farmer out there digging a well to water his family and going to end up killing a lot of people when he hits a buried stash of the chemical weapons buried in the sands out there.
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« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2010, 04:29:16 PM »

he buried jets.  what's a few WMD?   grin
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« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2010, 04:45:14 PM »

Here is a 75 foot long 25 ton mig.   They have found 30 different aircraft at an airfield in Irag.   

The only reason it was found is because it was not dropped into a hole.  They just piled dirt on top of it at the airfield. If you had a truck of chemical weapons, how easy would that be to drive into the desert and bury it in a hole?  I am pretty sure that chemical weapons are still out there somewhere.
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« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2010, 07:43:14 AM »

JerryMac writes:
Saddam was reportedly to have biological and/or chemical weapons that could kill people in large areas like cities.

But Saddam was only saying that he had them to keep Iran from invading.

tecumseh:
Well I do think you have those details correct.   Scott Ritter (I think the name is correct) was an ex marine, UN weapon's inspector who very early on explained to folks why there were NO WMD in Iraq.  Given that Mr Ritter was a self described Republican it is difficult to understand how some folks (like Fox NEWs for example) went to such effort to demean his reputation.  Seems some folks will allow pretty extreme behavior by anyone that pushes their own political agenda.

From there you can move to the Valarie Plame/Joseph Wilson affair.  I guess this entire event should have suggest to a lot of folks the the WMD was pure fabrication and that anyone that got in the way of this LIE would be run over with a truck.  I think I should not need to mention that this was in fact a CRIME for which no one was been held responsible.   So much for the idea of a nation of laws and not men. 
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« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2010, 10:20:58 AM »

It is a shame we don't have chemical sniffing dogs. Or ground penetrating radar. Or thermal imaging devises. Or metal detectors. Or seismic equipment. Or.....

I would think that there is someone that would know where this stuff is buried or moved to if it had such done to it. And now that the guy is dead they would have no fear coming forward with the info. 
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« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2010, 10:24:25 AM »

you seem not to be very familiar with either Ritter or the so called "Plame affair".  

after the Ritter teams were kicked out of Iraq in '98 he agitated for the admin and the UN to hold Saddam to the cease fire agreement.  he also wrote and spoke a number of times about his belief that even if Saddam didn't have WMD at the moment, he had every intention and the ability to reconstitute his WMD programs without problem.  he was not part of the later Blix/ElBaradei teams that wrote the damning reports about Saddams missing materials and his lack of cooperation, including keeping key scientists from interviews.
Ritter did believe that Saddam no longer had WMD, but he believed it with no proof.  how foolish would it have been to take only his word when all else disagreed with him?  it became apparent that his main objection was to war.  fair enough.  no one likes war.

the only part of the Plame thing that has any bearing on this are the Wilson reports.  the report he gave to congress seems to have been substantially different than the report he gave later to the press.  we don't know all of what he said because there is no unredacted congressional report available.  whatever he reported to congress led them to believe that there was the possibility of a Niger/Iraq connection.  
regardless, this report had little to do with the decision to go to war.  it would have been a small footnote if not for Wilson's search for fame, and his wife's later claim of being "outed" by the admin.
the latter proved to be false, and when all was said and done, it might have been Wilson and plame that should have been indited for perjery.....sadly, that did not happen.

so, you made small arguments.   neither of these cases would have made a ripple in the pond at the time except for massive left wing press pressure.  neither had much to do with the larger picture. neither had anything to do with the reports from the UN inspection teams.  
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« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2010, 10:29:05 AM »

jerrymac, i don't know how Saddam did things, but we do know how other nutball dictators have operated.  they make sure that info is compartmentalized so that no one has the big picture.  everyone only has a tiny bit of info.  they also kill everyone that has info and are not needed in the future.

for instance, you send a team out to dump your wmd so that the inspectors don't get you, then you kill the guys that dumped the wmd so that  no one knows you dumped it.  the odd thing is that most of they guys, saddam included, keep very detailed records.  there are no records to go with the disposition of the WMD.  that's out of character and worth some interest.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2010, 10:59:34 AM »

So as we have now been all over Iraq, where are the WMD?

Syria
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« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2010, 03:22:54 PM »

So they are normally anal about paper work but in this case there isn't any. Hum. How dare we think there were no WMDs.

I was really going more on what I heard about SH's trial. I thought that is where I heard about keeping the idea of WMDs because of Iran.
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« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2010, 03:57:26 PM »

Quote
So they are normally anal about paper work but in this case there isn't any. Hum. How dare we think there were no WMDs

except we have documentation of the existence of the material.  it's just what happened to them that no one knows.

no doubt he wanted iran to believe he had them.  he was very paranoid about iran.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2010, 04:22:02 PM »

He wanted everybody to think he had tons of the stuff.  And he would have used every bit of the stuff that he could get a hold of.
Just look at what he did use against Iran and even his own people and what WMD were destroyed after the first gulf war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_chemical_warfare
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_poison_gas_attack

So everybody knows he had them.   Just where are they is the $64,000 question.  Destroyed or buried in the sand.   I am voting for the sand.  I think gold, cash, people, or the technology for weapons made it into Syria on the trucks.  And the trucks may be buried in the sand in Syria. 
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« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2010, 08:51:00 AM »

missy misinformation writes:
how foolish would it have been to take only his word when all else disagreed with him?

tecumseh:
first... no it really ain't a million dollar question, it is more like a Trillion Dollar question.

well Mr Ritter was IN FACT correct.  the Ritter story is not exactly like you describe (this must be Fox New's excuse for devaluing Mr Ritter's informed opinion??).  'All else disagreed' evidently means YOU didn't believe his analysis of chemical and biological weapons* in Iraq.  sadly one needs only read the past few responses to see exactly who sucked up 'the media' Fox News various justification for promoting this war.     

the wilson/plame affair does suggest how far some folks in power will go to twist information to gain their own ends.  They made large sums of money in this shell game and you get to pick up the tab. 

I have yet to hear more than one self proclaimed conservative take some responsibility for this debacle.  His plea of culpability does mean I now read his writing with a bit more attention.


*it should be mentioned here that the chemical and biological weapons that Iraq did have were acquired almost exclusively from us, so the sum total of what had been there was fairly well known.  there is nothing to suggest that Iraq had any extensive capability to create these weapons on their own without significant help from elsewhere.

as Allen F seems to suggest Saddam was playing a pretty serious game and any suggestion by him that he had no chemical or biological weapons would have opened him up to confrontation with Iran.  Some folks contention that Saddam prove he had none is a logical stretch.  Unlike Allen F's final analysis there are no chemical or biological weapons buried in the sands of Iraq, nor were these delivered to Syria (I guess someone forgot the implementation of the northern and southern no fly zones).  Beyond those weapon found by UN inspector the remainder can be simply explained (Mr Ritter's description) by the effect of time on chemical and biological weapons (they inherently deterioriate with time).     
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« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2010, 10:01:53 AM »

hey tech, it's ok not to know everything about everything.  i know it puts you out of sorts and you want to be rude, but we understand.

i will confess to having some advantage over you on this subject.  i also have, somewhere, many hours of reading cataloged.  UN reports, testimony to congress, congressional reports, open source intel, and a pretty good list of books.  

do want to thank you.  you have managed to be a little more entertaining than the average lib.  in the end, you all come to the same place.   grin

just as an aside, as i believe that character matters:  http://articles.cnn.com/2010-01-15/justice/un.inspector.ritter.arrest_1_weapons-inspector-web-camera-police-officer?_s=PM:CRIME

and what is this?  the third time?  
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2010, 09:28:33 PM »

WMD in Iraq.   
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1653841/posts

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/world/iraq-sarin-stockpiles-found/story-e6frfkui-1111112124958

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120268,00.html

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/5/17/170427.shtml

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html

One shell is a weapon of mass destruction. 
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« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2010, 08:14:58 AM »

kathyp writes:
hey tech, it's ok not to know everything about everything.  i know it puts you out of sorts and you want to be rude, but we understand.

tecumseh:
uh huh....  the pot says while calling the kettle black. 

I am not 'the out of sorts' type with which you seem to be soooo comfortable.  as uneasy as this may make some folks feel... at my age I do pretty much know what I know and fairly well understand what I don't. 

then mizz kath writes:
do want to thank you.  you have managed to be a little more entertaining than the average lib.

tecumseh:
unlike some (evidently) I have never felt especially compelled to attach myself to any group.  the inverse does seem to be the most notable trend of our current time... that is group id is more important than knowing yourself.

although liberal might be fine if the word infers liberating?

I however don't mind tossing out stuff (some of with which I don't necessarily agree) just to entertain all you yankee beekeepers during this season of wooo...

I see you did the character assin thingee on Mr Ritter.  Seems that story is about a year old... so what was the final outcome?  No matter how it did turn out, it does not reduce the truth that Mr Ritter's informed opinion about WMD was in fact correct.

At this time I do suspect (based on various post) you are an excellent beekeeper and that for me is much more important than you political leanings.  Like yourself character (you know the real stuff and not that stuff manufactured by media or promotion) should matter.  Likely just a naive notion I have always tried to maintain. 
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« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2010, 10:08:40 AM »

not an excellent beekeeper, just working on it.  i have heard you are a good beekeeper also.  whatever our political leanings, beekeeping is a separate thing  smiley

on the Ritter matter:  i believe this is the 3rd time he's been caught at this.  once you could question and perhaps excuse as a mistake.  3 times, and caught in a sting, maybe no excuse for that.

i do not know the particulars. wikipedia only lists 2 arrest, but i though there were 3.  
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #39 on: November 18, 2010, 08:21:29 AM »

I wondered about your third time comment.  I thought perhaps I had missed a link listed by you for the third time.  Went looking and found nothing there, so your last comment fills in the void.

Caught is not the same thing as conviction (which is what I kind of asked in the 'final outcome' question).  The american tradition would suggest innocent until proven guilty. 

No I am not a good beekeeper... I am god's most imperfect beekeeper.  Some folks do seem to think I have a talent for the caring of the bees.  I suspect it is more like a skilled honed by popping large numbers of tops for a long period of time over a broad area of the country.  I do appreciate comments (by others in regards to beekeeping) that do not make beekeeping look a bit too much like alchemy.   

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« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2010, 10:00:31 AM »

it was 3.  two in 2001 and one in 2009.  the last is still pending near as i can tell.  yes, in the eyes of the law he is innocent until proven guilty.  i think it is not out of line to wonder how someone can accidentally land in the lap of the law over the same kind of thing, three time in three different ways.  if he were to move in next door to you and your 14 year old daughter, you probably would assume he was guilty of something, and keep and close eye on him?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2010, 01:27:20 PM »

innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the law.

this is why the law is supposed to be enforced and adjudicated by non partisan persons.

the enforcement and judicial system should have no business with party affiliations or obvious biases.

This is because the public is not trained and educated to be objective and fact based s the people in the enforcement and judicial system are supposed to be.

What we find though are too many instances of enforcement officers tampering with evidence, not collecting evidence correctly, lawyers and judges with plain political affiliations and financial relationships.

There is a reason recusement is an option for the objective and so called "ethical" judge and jurist.

if the guy was found guilty in a court of law and that court was not tainted, then the guy is a slug.  Which is what the most reporting shows.

If folks want to defend a slug in order to defend their political and idealistic leanings, it just goes to show what is more important, the truth or the appearance of being right.
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« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2010, 09:02:15 AM »

tecumseh:

since the oil companies in the gulf made up their own rules (under the Bush administration) and then decided not to follow these, how could any reasonable person suggest that the operation of the deep drilling rigs (which I think is all the ban limited) should not be reviewed?  how anyone could review the history of the oil industry (which basically conforms to the history of all extraction type businesses) and trust that crowd is just beyond my understanding. 

Tecumseh,
You are incorrect, the fact is this well was started and failed soley under the Obama admin. They were in full control from application to explosion
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« Reply #43 on: November 22, 2010, 08:05:25 AM »

b reeves...
perhaps hone you reading skills just a bit sir.  I  was  referencing when the rules in the gulf were established and not when the well was started or burned.

although without a doubt there is a large amount of blame to toss about it is difficult for me to understand how folks can float the 'regulation' created the problem rhetoric.
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