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Author Topic: "PLEASE DON'T PEE ON MY LEG AND TELL ME IT'S RAINING."  (Read 5348 times)
tecumseh
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« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2010, 09:32:41 AM »

Iddee writes:
"Some people try to stay alive long enough to take care of the problem."

Some of us use the same strategy when dealing with humans.

tecumseh:
I suspect Iddee either mine or your PROBABILITY of being harmed directly by muslim terrorist is pretty remote.  having said that, I will tell you that I had two god daughter (quite charming young ladies really even thought they are yankees) that were occupying the building right next to the World Trade Center on 9/11.... so for some of us the risk is not direct but the consequence of such stuff can hit quite close to home.

everyone profiles... it is good (for me personally at least) to come to some understanding of this bias rather than allowing such small thinking to control my life.

as I have suggest previously, when all you have to sell is fear you really have nothing much to offer. 
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G3farms
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« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2010, 09:59:33 AM »

IE: Some people will kill yellow jackets while pampering honey bees. Both stinging insects, but profiling is used, in IMHO, successfully.

simply put, I like it!
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kathyp
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« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2010, 10:22:27 AM »

Quote
everyone profiles... it is good (for me personally at least) to come to some understanding of this bias rather than allowing such small thinking to control my life

small thinking?

how hard is it to understand that people who belong to a certain religion and have stated their desire to wipe "The Great Satan" (us) off the face of the earth?  it's not all those people.  it's not even most of them.  however, they are part of a large religion, and the number of them willing to die to kill us is large. 

if you consider the bias (profiling) small thinking, then i would say you have a personal problem.  if it is taking over your life, ditto the last. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
iddee
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« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2010, 04:40:43 PM »

Tec says: "I suspect Iddee either mine or your PROBABILITY of being harmed directly by muslim terrorist is pretty remote. "

Iddee says:  If you have flown in the last 9 years, you have been harmed by muslim terrorist. It doesn't have to be physical wounds to be harmed.

"""If it looks like a snake, crawls like a snake, hisses like a snake, I'm going to think it bites like a snake. You think the way you want.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
beek4018
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« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2010, 05:17:04 PM »

Simple test:

I'll even give you the answers.

1. Who blew up the Oklahoma City Federal Building?
A white American male between the ages of 17 and 50

2. Who shot that family planning doctor in Kansas?

A white American male between the ages of 17 and 50

3. Who planted the Atlanta Olympics bomb?

A white American male between the ages of 17 and 50

4. Who have been responsible for numerous abortion clinic bombings and shootings over the last 30 years?

White American males between the ages of 17 and 50

All perpetrated on American soil too.   Hmmmm.

So what does that little bit of profiling tell us?

Should we all fear and discriminate against white American males between the ages of 17 and 50?

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hardwood
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« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2010, 05:29:49 PM »

I guess America is lucky I'm 51

Scott
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"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1907
kathyp
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« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2010, 05:54:54 PM »

Quote
Simple test:

I'll even give you the answers.

1. Who blew up the Oklahoma City Federal Building?
a white American male between the ages of 17 and 50

2. Who shot that family planning doctor in Kansas?

a white American male between the ages of 17 and 50

3. Who planted the Atlanta Olympics bomb?

a white American male between the ages of 17 and 50

4. Who have been responsible for numerous abortion clinic bombings and shootings over the last 30 years?

White American males between the ages of 17 and 50

All perpetrated on American soil too.   Hmmmm.

So what does that little bit of profiling tell us?

Should we all fear and discriminate against white American males between the ages of 17 and 50?

that's a great list of actions taken by a few nuts.  now name the government, organization, or religions leaders, that condoned  those actions.  see anyone dancing in the streets after any of those things?  at least in this country.......?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
beek4018
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« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2010, 06:14:31 PM »

Gee Kathy,

Why am I not surprised to see you not ascribe similar Muslim extremism ( including the dancers in the street and leaders who didn't denounce the acts of violence) as the actions of "a few nuts" in a Muslim community of millions. Yet when I point out a few white, Christian Americans yor immediate reaction is  to give their society a pass because "they are just "a few nuts".

Nice double standard.

Funny how the actions of a few Muslims tar the whole community, but not so violent Americans (who right wrong or indifferent have killed far more  people worldwide than any other group in history), or white people.

Violence is wrong, period.

My point was that profiling is a fairly inaccurate tool for meting out justice.

And, for the record, there were plenty of right wing extremist leaders singing the praises of all of those white American terrorists.

So don't kid yourself into thinking our society is any better.

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bulldog
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« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2010, 06:45:37 PM »

if the majority of drunk drivers are on the road between 10 pm and 4 am and i were a cop wouldn't my best chances of pulling over a drunk be between those hours ?  if that cop were to be, say a little more aggressive, in making traffic stops during that time wouldn't his chance of making a dwi arrest increase ? and in doing so wouldn't the streets be a little safer ?

profiling may not be fair to people that are innocent, yet belong to the particular demographic being singled out, but it is effective law enforcement in most cases.

it was, after all, 19 arab muslims  that boarded planes on 9-11 and killed all those people in the name of allah, so maybe a little harsher scrutiny of people that happen to be arab/muslim trying to board a plane might actually prevent something like that from happening in the future or at least discourage it somewhat ? or would you perhaps like for us to just let our guard down and allow something like that to happen again ?
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iddee
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« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2010, 06:54:27 PM »

No argument from me, beek. I defer to reply #72 on the npr thread.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
bigbearomaha
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« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2010, 06:54:50 PM »

ultimately, the point is, "profiling" is something all living creatures do.  Animals that have been abused will often become shy or very aggressive when people are around them, based on how people treated them.

as humans, we discriminate in everything we do, from the foods we eat to the people we choose to associate with to music we like to hear.

It's not so much that we are profiling, it's what we do about it that becomes the issue.

if I am responsible for security at a birth control clinic and I know that white males between the ages of 17 and 50 are the most recognized as shooters of doctors in those places, I will step up my scrutiny when  I see one in the area.  I may not arrest them or cuss them out or give them the evil eye, but  I most certainly will err on the side of caution.

If I am responsible for security at an airline and I know that arabic looking men between ages 17 and 50 are highly recognized as attacking airlines,  I will most certainly pay more attention to them when I see someone fitting the description.    However, again,  I will not arrest them or give them the evil eye , etc..  I will, though, err on the side of caution.

If every time I see a politician,  I get the feeling I am being lied to,  I am very likely to be distrustful of anything a politician says to me and check out what they told me somewhere  I think is believable before  I accept it as truth.

Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me.

I should've been watching for you the second time.
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bulldog
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« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2010, 07:12:29 PM »

Quote
If every time I see a politician,  I get the feeling I am being lied to,  I am very likely to be distrustful of anything a politician says to me and check out what they told me somewhere  I think is believable before  I accept it as truth.

no offense bigbear, but i think all politicians do lie to us  grin
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bigbearomaha
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« Reply #32 on: October 27, 2010, 07:21:00 PM »

 Wink

I know,  I threw that in to be obvious.  heh

Big Bear
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kathyp
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« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2010, 07:25:24 PM »

Quote
Funny how the actions of a few Muslims tar the whole community, but not so violent Americans (who right wrong or indifferent have killed far more  people worldwide than any other group in history), or white people.

Violence is wrong, period.

My point was that profiling is a fairly inaccurate tool for meting out justice.

And, for the record, there were plenty of right wing extremist leaders singing the praises of all of those white American terrorists.

So don't kid yourself into thinking our society is any better.

i will agree that it is a small % of Muslims, but that is not a small number.  there are between 1.3 and 1.8 billion Muslims.  you do the math with any % radicals you want to choose.  in addition, they have the backing of governments like Iran and Syria, and segments of the religion like the Wahhabi sect in Saudi Arabia.  Hezbollah, which is one of the most dangerous terrorist organizations in the world, was formed and is supported by Iran...which is a thocracy run by Mullahs.

violence is not only not always wrong, but sometimes necessary.  i am capable and willing to be violent if i need to be, but i do not lead a violent life, or subscribe to a violent belief.

you don't think our society is any better....i can't relate to that kind of moral relativism.

profiling is a tool.  by itself, it would not be effective.  as part of a counter terrorism program, it is an important tool.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2010, 09:19:02 PM »


... violent Americans (who right wrong or indifferent have killed far more  people worldwide than any other group in history), or white people.


Um, actually I think feudal China still holds the record for the most dead on a single battlefield, with deaths counting into the millions -I don't have the exact numbers, but I suppose if we had to come up with them I may find proof of mine first.

EDIT: upper tens to low hundred(s) of thousands per battlefield - with up to millions per war.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 09:31:24 PM by Bee Happy » Logged

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tecumseh
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« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2010, 09:26:31 PM »

beek 4018 writes:
Simple test:

tecumseh:
let's add a couple of more.

5) who killed JFK?

6) who killed Martin Luther King?

in both cases american citizens did celebrate and dance in the street when both of these men were murdered?
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bulldog
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« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2010, 09:49:03 PM »

Quote
in both cases american citizens did celebrate and dance in the street when both of these men were murdered?


this is the first i have heard of this. i might be inclined to believe that a certain portion of white America may have danced at mlk's death, although i never heard anything about it, but kennedy ? did this really happen or are you fabricating ?

Quote
5) who killed JFK?


depends on who you ask
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kathyp
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« Reply #37 on: October 27, 2010, 09:55:10 PM »

i lived through both. missed the dancing in the street for either, although i'm sure both made some people happy.  again, not organized or state/religion supported actions.....as far as we know.

there will always be nuts.  there will always be murders.  there will aways be people happy about certain deaths.  i was pretty happy to see Murtha go.

Bee Happy was he talking about Americans or whites in general?  either way, i can't make the numbers work.  maybe if you toss in all dictators, but they are not all white....

in fact, radical Islam has killed more Arabs and Persian than anything else, all in their desire to establish a Muslim word as they think it should exist.   
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2010, 10:06:11 PM »

Tec, go back and read the title to the thread. Dancing in the streets when JFK died? You must have been eating ham before bed. They say it causes nightmares and weird dreams. You should be more careful about your diet.

As so often happens on this forum, I think I want to call for links to source on this one.

As for MLK, The ones wanting to dance probably couldn't get off work.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
Michael Bush
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« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2010, 12:25:08 AM »

>"If it looks like a snake, crawls like a snake, hisses like a snake, I'm going to think it bites like a snake. You think the way you want."

I've seen thousands of snakes in my life.  None of them bit me... and most were not capable of biting me even if I caught them (and I did catch some of them).

Good analogy.  Most snakes are quite good and quite nice...
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