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Author Topic: Queen mating fact, myth, or unknown....  (Read 10026 times)
BjornBee
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« Reply #60 on: December 02, 2010, 08:53:52 PM »

I was talking to my good friend Dwight Porter the other day, he said he seen a couple times this year a queen leave the hive on her mating flight and return between 15-20 minutes, she would need a jet pack on her to fligh 6 miles in that amount of time  Wink


 
   TWT .............
 
a worker bee fly at about 12 miles per hr.


   BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
 

Ok, Jim.....curiousity killed the cat. I've thought about this long enough.

What does the worker flying 12 miles an hour have to do with queen mating?  grin

BTW, How does that compare to the drone and queen?



BjornBee....

Do you know how fasts a queen or drone can fly  Huh


    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley

Actually, without looking it up, No...I have no clue.
I was trying to make it easy on myself and was hoping you knew...  Wink
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« Reply #61 on: December 02, 2010, 08:57:04 PM »

I read a similar study perhaps.

The gist of it was that when a new queen was needed the 'sisters' of each sub-family had a preference for their 'sister' sub-family eggs. So each faction would raise their own queen cell. The stronger sub-family might even add wax to other queen cells so theirs would hatch first.
Now if there are no viable larva they will all jump right on that frame of fresh larva or eggs you stick in with no problem.
Now there can be numerous sub-families because the sperm from each drone is not in seperate pouches that the queen empties one at a time. Each days hatch can have multible drone fathers.
The hive still works together for the betterment of the whole.
They know when there is no queen, get real desperate, but relax when you put a totaly strange new queen in. They will start bringing pollen in again before she is even released and laying eggs.

They are fascinating.
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« Reply #62 on: December 02, 2010, 09:02:53 PM »

I was talking to my good friend Dwight Porter the other day, he said he seen a couple times this year a queen leave the hive on her mating flight and return between 15-20 minutes, she would need a jet pack on her to fligh 6 miles in that amount of time  Wink


 
   TWT .............
 
a worker bee fly at about 12 miles per hr.


   BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
 

Ok, Jim.....curiousity killed the cat. I've thought about this long enough.

What does the worker flying 12 miles an hour have to do with queen mating?  grin

BTW, How does that compare to the drone and queen?



BjornBee....

Do you know how fasts a queen or drone can fly  Huh


    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley

Actually, without looking it up, No...I have no clue.
I was trying to make it easy on myself and was hoping you knew...  Wink


                                 LOL


   BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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« Reply #63 on: March 20, 2011, 04:00:54 PM »

I will have to agree with BjornBee about the queen's recognizing drones from her colony.  I read the information in one of the bee magazines about 3 years ago.  I can't remember if it was in one of the issues that have the research papers condensed or if it was in one of the articles by the Traynors.  If bees recognize and show a preferance for larvae from their own colony when making emergency emergency queen cells, why should they not recognize their own drones?
I know this is an old thread but I too remember reading that article you and BB are talking about. I wish I saw this thread earlier so I could have helped in finding out who the author was that wrote the article while this thread was still active.
 
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« Reply #64 on: March 21, 2011, 06:14:38 AM »

I will have to agree with BjornBee about the queen's recognizing drones from her colony.  I read the information in one of the bee magazines about 3 years ago.  I can't remember if it was in one of the issues that have the research papers condensed or if it was in one of the articles by the Traynors.  If bees recognize and show a preferance for larvae from their own colony when making emergency emergency queen cells, why should they not recognize their own drones?

        If you can get "Bee Sex Essentials" by Lawrence John Connor the read Pg.97-100 it will help you a lot .It is about virgin queens and her brothers.



    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley

« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 06:28:56 AM by Jim 134 » Logged

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« Reply #65 on: March 21, 2011, 06:35:40 AM »

Jim,
For the sake of 5,000 readers....can you actually post a quote or what material you are referencing?

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« Reply #66 on: March 21, 2011, 04:35:55 PM »


BjornBee   
    Do you have this book Huh 
First edition First printing
Pg. 98 Par 2
"Bee Sex Essentials" by Lawrence John Connor


   III The mating process


  Pg. 95 to 114
« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 05:59:36 PM by Jim 134 » Logged

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« Reply #67 on: March 21, 2011, 06:38:19 PM »

BjornBee    
    Do you have this book Huh  

http://wicwas.com/index.html

"Bee Sex Essentials" by Lawrence John Connor
First edition First printing
Pg. 98 Par 2
queen travels about a mile or more to for mating
drones about 0.16 mile
This minimizes inbreeding


   III The mating process


  Pg. 95 to 114
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 05:47:09 AM by Jim 134 » Logged

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« Reply #68 on: March 21, 2011, 06:42:54 PM »

Here's a link to the book for anyone interested:
http://www.amazon.com/Bee-Sex-Essentials-Larry-Connor/dp/B00144HLYY
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« Reply #69 on: March 22, 2011, 08:56:48 AM »

BjornBee    
    Do you have this book Huh  

http://wicwas.com/index.html

"Bee Sex Essentials" by Lawrence John Connor
First edition First printing
Pg. 98 Par 2
queen travels about a mile or more to for mating
drones about 0.16 mile
This minimizes inbreeding


   III The mating process


  Pg. 95 to 114



No I don't.

Can you please also add the research or study that makes this comment that drones only fly about two tenths of a mile. I have never seen such numbers before.

As a side note, I do not always believe what I read or hear. I attended a workshop by Larry Connor at the 2009 HAS convention, and twice, it was stated that queens NEVER leave the hive for mating except between the hours of Noon and 3 pm. I have seen queens leaving prior to that. I asked about the "concrete" statement and it was once again repeated.

This conversation came about while doing a hive inspection of a hive and the queen could not be found.  The time was approximately 11:30 in the morning. Larry asked for beekeepers to take a guess as to the hives situation that could make finding a queen not doable. After someone said it was probably queenless, I added that perhaps a second look later in the day or the next day would be a good thing, since maybe the queen had left on a mating flight. Larry said at 11:30 there could be no way for this to happen since queens ONLY left between between Noon and 3 pm.

Sure......  rolleyes

Anyhow.....your mentioning one set of facts or details, that neither adds, subtracts, or supports the original comments. What distance a queen or a drone flies, means little in questioning whether a queen can detect a drone from her own colony.

I, as well as many others, have seen queens mate less distances that what some of these books suggest that a queen automatically flies or some set in concrete statement.

I take breeder queens from one yard and move this breeder to another grouping of yards for grafting and breeding. That way as a breeder, I know for sure that regardless of how far a drone flies, or a queen flies, she is not mating with her own genetics. Seems to work rather well. I feel better doing this than relying on some concrete statements made in books, many times shown to be wrong by careful observations and real world applications.
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« Reply #70 on: March 22, 2011, 11:02:40 AM »

As a side note, I do not always believe what I read or hear.
from here, it seems that much (if not most) of the discussion on this thread stems from statements you made in the first post that started the thread:

Quote
a few things that you should know about queens mating...
* a queen can determine her own drones in the mating process.
* Bees can actually identify an inbreed egg once laid.

The second statement I believe that we have agreed (by comparing published studies and your observations) is false...the larvae must "hatch" before diploid drones are identified by the bees.

Now, the first statement (above)...if you really believed this to be true, you would have no reason to do what you describe (below):
Quote
I take breeder queens from one yard and move this breeder to another grouping of yards for grafting and breeding. That way as a breeder, I know for sure that regardless of how far a drone flies, or a queen flies, she is not mating with her own genetics. Seems to work rather well.

But, the kicker seems to be your final statement in your last post:
Quote
I feel better doing this than relying on some concrete statements made in books, many times shown to be wrong by careful observations and real world applications.

I can't help but point out that the "concrete statement" in question (queens determining what drones to mate with) was made by you, never substantiated (the reference AR Beekeeper made was to workers identifying larvae in a colony, not queens recognizing drones "on the wing").  Clearly, you never really believed this (otherwise, you would not bother to move colonies for mating).

I guess I just don't see the point of 'laying down facts' that you don't actually believe, then, 4 pages later talking as if you never believed what you read anyways.

deknow
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« Reply #71 on: March 22, 2011, 11:44:59 AM »


I guess I just don't see the point....

Good for you. You must feel special.

Right on cue, a holier than thou book writer comes to the defense of another, by attacking my comments, with nonsense, personal interpretation, and statements claiming to know what I think, believe and know. What pure nonsense.

My last comment was making a point that just because someone puts it in a book (like yours...  rolleyes  ) that it can not be taken as gospel.

To compare that too statements and dialog on an open forum and the efforts that others put forth in allowing questions and debate to take place, is not comparable to holding up a book and assuming because it is in print, that everything thing is known, true, or without fault.

It funny how you don't attack my methods of queen breeding, to which I am open and honest, but rather attack some poor rationale that you know what I believe or not, based on trying to fit all my pieces into your puzzle box, which you do a poor job.

I always am amused when someone suggests that because a manufacturer (like checkmite and the claims that the product does not harm bees) a book writer (That anything published is not worthy of debate) or some pompous beekeepers (who does not understand the nature of a forum) gets all upset protecting their turf when someone comes along and states what they experience is far different than those making the original claims to begin with. Crawl outside your box for just a bit. there is a whole other world outside the academia circle you certainly confine yourself.
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« Reply #72 on: March 22, 2011, 12:27:34 PM »

Right on cue, a holier than thou book writer comes to the defense of another, by attacking my comments, with nonsense, personal interpretation, and statements claiming to know what I think, believe and know. What pure nonsense.
I'm not aware that i was/am coming to anyone's defense.
I have no idea what you think, believe, or know....i only know what you write here.

Quote
My last comment was making a point that just because someone puts it in a book (like yours...  rolleyes  ) that it can not be taken as gospel.
I agree with that statement 100%.
My reading of this thread is that you get upset when someone questions "facts" you present, even when they are not based on your own observations, and you have no idea where you read the facts.

Quote
To compare that too statements and dialog on an open forum and the efforts that others put forth in allowing questions and debate to take place, is not comparable to holding up a book and assuming because it is in print, that everything thing is known, true, or without fault.
errr....from my reading, you left no room for anyone to disagree with the statements you made in your first post:
Quote
Hopefullt you understand that inbreeding many times in NOT from a queen mating with her own drones. It has already been established that a queen recognizes her own drones and will reject her drones for mating.
and when I (politely) questioned the source, you responded with:
Quote
I have already stated I do not have the material at hand. this fact, does not cloud my own experiences, knowledge of what I read, or the information at hand. If I run across it, then i will post it.
...again, not too much room left by you for disagreement.

...followed by:
Quote
Something tells me with all the amazing things bees do, and from what I can observe myself, that bees do clean out inbred eggs. To think they need to wait for a certain stage of development seems a bit wasteful in nature's scheme of things.
...which, you followed (when confronted with actual data) with:
Quote
So we are talking removal at day four from the egg laying? Correct? That would be in line with what I am seeing.
at best, this shows a sloppy account of your own observations....first you claim  that you have observed bees cleaning out inbred eggs, then modify your observations by including 1 day old larvae.

this isn't some casual comments taken out of context bjorn...this is all under "A few things you should know about queen mating" all the while claiming that you know better than anyone else.

Quote
It funny how you don't attack my methods of queen breeding, to which I am open and honest, but rather attack some poor rationale that you know what I believe or not, based on trying to fit all my pieces into your puzzle box, which you do a poor job.
I don't "attack" your queen breeding practices because what I know of them appears to be sound.  What you offer in this thread are a set of facts about queen mating, not a method.  It is worth noting that what you offer in the way of your method (moving queens to new yards for mating) protects you against the possibility that the fact you present (about queens choosing their mates) isn't true.

Quote
I always am amused when someone suggests that because a manufacturer (like checkmite and the claims that the product does not harm bees) a book writer (That anything published is not worthy of debate) or some pompous beekeepers (who does not understand the nature of a forum) gets all upset protecting their turf when someone comes along and states what they experience is far different than those making the original claims to begin with. Crawl outside your box for just a bit. there is a whole other world outside the academia circle you certainly confine yourself.
I must be stupid....I don't understand what Checkmite has to do with anything we have been discussing, I don't believe that anything is unworthy of debate, I _think_ I understand "the nature of a forum, I don't know what "turf" I "hold" or why/how I should "protect" it, I don't disbelieve any of your observations, and I'm not aware of being part of any "academia circle".

deknow
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« Reply #73 on: March 22, 2011, 12:34:00 PM »

Now.....for those that actually want to know why I do what I do, here is some information.

I use breeders from one yard (or cluster setting) and move a queen from another apiary (or cluster of yards) due to the impossible lack of controlling every aspect of genetics as some may so easily suggest is possible as seen in some bee books, and advice from those that write books, but yet do not practice half of what they try to teach to others.

It's easy to understand.

My mating yards are set up in "clusters".

All the genetics from a particular line of bees in any yard are not confined to just the bees in the managed hives. Last years swarms, located in the surrounding area, as well as the genetic material spread by the drones of those yards, and all in the immediate area make up the genetic matter in any given area. I am not just trying to keep bees from the same hive from mating, but I am also trying to keep bees from the same lines from mating.

In doing this the best I know how, it makes sense if a breeder is brought in from another cluster of line of bees, so not only are the daughters being raised not breeding from drones from the same hive, but more importantly, they are not mating with the same genetic line as sometimes sits in the same yard (or in the area via swarms, etc.)

So whether a queen can sense a drone from her own colony or not, it makes not one difference. I don't want the new queens being mated with genetics of the same line, whether from the same queen, sister hives, or from the same genetic line.

Sure, drone saturation with a different line, helps. But that just means your playing the best odds. To be assured of the highest genetic diversity and to guarantee your queens will not mate with drone from the same line, (Other like genetic hives in the same apiary), then bringing in a breeder queen from another cluster of hives is the BEST management task you can do.

And THAT...is doing what produces the BEST queens.

To be clear...

If you have a breeding yard with one genetic line, surrounded by drone support yards with another line, (And this is what is suggested in books and not much more) you might get good queens. But swarms and the blending of these lines will lessen your quality over the years. And certainly it's not always as clear cut as some books suggest when your keeping more than one hive and mating more than one queen.

If you have a mating yard with one line of bees, and they are surrounded by drone support yards, then the best possible scenario is to bring in a queen from another yard in your operation, thus leaving nothing to chance, and you control or eliminate inbreeding and other issues more effectively.

It's not that hard to understand why I do what I do if some actual thought goes into it.

You can do what some suggest and get good queens. But I'm sure some writing books, perhaps would do things differently from what they write, if their livelyhood was dependant on queens, and not selling books.  grin
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« Reply #74 on: March 22, 2011, 12:39:07 PM »

My reading of this thread is that you get upset when someone questions "facts" you present, even when they are not based on your own observations, and you have no idea where you read the facts.


How do you figure?

I spoke of something I read to be true. (And a few others also read)

I also said I could not find the article. I was up front, and stated what I read. And I think if you actually went back and read the entire comments, this has been rehashed a number of times. But I get it...you need to pound your chest and belittle a point to death.

I really don't even know why I am responding to this. Nothing will make you happy. I am trying to help others like the last post from me, and you just continue to thrust your "superior" attitude over others I guess you feel threatened from.

Oh well.....  rolleyes
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« Reply #75 on: March 22, 2011, 12:49:28 PM »

For the record deknow....I'm more than happy not responding to your posts. It works rather well.

I find that two people who take this approach, can still add their input, if they strictly keep the comments to personal experience and what they did, what they know, and keep the direct rebuttals out of it.

It seems as if every forum has a few that will just constantly butt heads. On Beesource, it was a guy named "Honeyhouse". Here, you just seem to rub me wrong. Nothing wrong with that I suppose. It just happens on a forum.

I'll ignore you, and I guess I'm asking the same from you.

I know some others will probably see this as a good thing also.

Cheers.  Wink
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« Reply #76 on: March 22, 2011, 08:37:22 PM »



 

As a side note, I do not always believe what I read or hear. I attended a workshop by Larry Connor at the 2009 HAS convention, and twice, it was stated that queens NEVER leave the hive for mating except between the hours of Noon and 3 pm. I have seen queens leaving prior to that. I asked about the "concrete" statement and it was once again repeated.

This conversation came about while doing a hive inspection of a hive and the queen could not be found.  The time was approximately 11:30 in the morning. Larry asked for beekeepers to take a guess as to the hives situation that could make finding a queen not doable. After someone said it was probably queenless, I added that perhaps a second look later in the day or the next day would be a good thing, since maybe the queen had left on a mating flight. Larry said at 11:30 there could be no way for this to happen since queens ONLY left between between Noon and 3 pm.

Sure......  rolleyes
 

     In the  book "Bee Sex Essntials" it say Queen mating flight are between 1 PM and 4PM  standard time  and the time  changing seasonally accrding to photoperiod,weather,climate,subspecies and flight activity the prior day.


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« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 06:11:54 AM by Jim 134 » Logged

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« Reply #77 on: March 23, 2011, 06:39:22 AM »

But early in the day you can see short cleaning and orientation flights and not mating flights around the hive area.



   BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley


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« Reply #78 on: March 23, 2011, 07:44:28 AM »

Quote from: BjornBee
Larry said at 11:30 there could be no way for this to happen since queens ONLY left between between Noon and 3 pm.
I've met Larry a few times, have signed copies of his books, and have great respect for his knowledge, but that wasn't a very bright statement. Do bees observe Daylight Savings Time? Are they aware that some states span different time zones? Bees are too unpredictable to make dogmatic statements about their behavior.
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« Reply #79 on: March 23, 2011, 10:52:01 AM »

Quote from: BjornBee
Larry said at 11:30 there could be no way for this to happen since queens ONLY left between between Noon and 3 pm.
I've met Larry a few times, have signed copies of his books, and have great respect for his knowledge, but that wasn't a very bright statement. Do bees observe Daylight Savings Time? Are they aware that some states span different time zones? Bees are too unpredictable to make dogmatic statements about their behavior.

>In the  book "Bee Sex Essntials" it say Queen mating flight are between 1 PM and 4PM  standard time  and the time  changing seasonally accrding to photoperiod,weather,climate,subspecies and flight activity the prior day.<


To me standard time is local time and bees follow the angle of the sun to the angle of the earth
  (Not the clock)

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