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Author Topic: Lets Talk Motors  (Read 6539 times)
ronwhite3030
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« on: October 03, 2010, 04:04:41 PM »

What size motors do people use and what have they gotten them off of or purchased them from, to make an extractor variable speed and reversible. and I am not talking about using a drill.
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AllenF
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« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2010, 05:18:51 PM »

Any small variable speed motor should work.   I have seen old ceiling fans used.  (free ones)
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AllenF
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« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2010, 05:22:10 PM »

And I saw an old treadmill motor used once also.
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ronwhite3030
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« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2010, 05:25:55 PM »

i was wondering if a ceiling fan would work, its reversible and variable speed, could probably hook a light dimmer switch on it to have better control of the speed. I have a 9 frame extractor now that is hand crank and not reversible. I bought it from dadant about 10 years ago. and really remember how much hand cranking sucks. and flipping the frames.
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AllenF
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« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2010, 05:37:27 PM »

When using a ceiling fan, they make a variable speed switch you just wire inline on the plug.
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ronwhite3030
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« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2010, 06:24:56 PM »

yea i saw the inline variable swith just dont know if a ceiling fan motor can support the weight of a 9 frame extractor or if it will burn up the motor. I just found this motor in one of my sheds, I mighnt be able to wire it up and use it.

Manufacturer: General Electric
Model Number:5KH43AB1252X
Horsepower:1/4
PH:1
RPM:1725
Volts:115
*Amps:4.6
**Cycles:60
Temp. Rise:40*C
Time Rating:Cont.
Code:M
SF:1.35
GEJ:435 WJ-D

can you make a motor revers and i mighnt be able to make this one variable speed.
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AllenF
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« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2010, 06:47:48 PM »

Ceiling fans are reversible.  They have a reversible switch on them.   When you tear out the motor, keep the switch inline with the wiring.   
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ronwhite3030
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« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2010, 08:04:40 PM »

well allen my father just called and a buddy of his has a 1/2hp motor with reverse and variable speed he is going to give me, It's nice when things work out with ease.
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AllenF
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« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2010, 08:21:15 PM »

The price sounds nice to me.
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ronwhite3030
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« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2010, 08:27:13 PM »

I thought so  too and i'd be big enough if i wanted to eventually get a larger extractor
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fish_stix
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« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2010, 06:07:56 PM »

Well OK then! But, next time you need one, Grainger Supply carries about every electric motor ever made I believe.  grin
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hardwood
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« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2010, 06:35:48 PM »

I use a treadmill motor (or at least I will when I get the extractor ready for it). They're powerful, infinitely variable, and free for the taking. How many 1-2 year old treadmills do you see sitting out for the trash?

Scott
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"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

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AllenF
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« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2010, 07:28:06 PM »

I don't think I ever saw one in the trash up here.   grin
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hardwood
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« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2010, 07:33:05 PM »

I bet I see them 3-4 times a week. More than that around 3 months after Christmas. I guess all the old retirees that come down here first decide to get into better beach body condition and, after trying a treadmill for a short while, decide they were happier when they were fat and lazy. Smiley

Scott
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"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1907
rdy-b
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« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2010, 10:07:30 PM »

motors that can be wired to rotate in ethier direction can be wired to a DRUM SWITCH
you will have stop the motor before you change direction-RDY-B
http://cgi.ebay.com/15Amp-Rain-Proof-Reversing-Drum-Switch-/250701879545?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a5eff18f9
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2010, 12:59:46 AM »

I think reversible is unnecessary, but variable speed is important so you can start slow while the combs are heavy with honey but crank it up when they are almost dry so you can get the last of it out quickly.
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tecumseh
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« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2010, 07:58:59 AM »

I think??? my very dated abc-xyz will agree with mr bush's suggestion that reversing is unnecessary and speed control is essential.  don't treadmill motor have some kind of speed control?
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Irwin
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« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2010, 08:11:34 AM »

I bet I see them 3-4 times a week. More than that around 3 months after Christmas. I guess all the old retirees that come down here first decide to get into better beach body condition and, after trying a treadmill for a short while, decide they were happier when they were fat and lazy. Smiley

Scott
Same around here. Heck just at my own home about every 3 years bike treadmill bike treadmill. They go from the bed room too back deck then to the back of my pickup.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2010, 01:26:30 PM »

reverse would be good for tangental-basket type-alow basket to swing freely and basket will flop -changeing direction and -which side of frame is on the outside with rotation direction-years ago they made a 8 frame extractor (buy life time i think ) the thing is the size of  a 60 frame radial-antque these days-anyway this machine had this advantage -also they make this type of machine to extract MANUKA honey which is very low in moisture content and hard to extract--spins one way for short time --then spins another way for short time-baskets flop each time direction changes
  Smiley RDY-B
Extracting thixotropic Manuka honey with Beetech Honeysucker Extractor and Hummer Spinfloat centrifuge
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Tommyt
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« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2010, 01:51:26 PM »

I bet I see them 3-4 times a week. More than that around 3 months after Christmas. I guess all the old retirees that come down here first decide to get into better beach body condition and, after trying a treadmill for a short while, decide they were happier when they were fat and lazy. Smiley

Scott

Business Op Knocking at the Door

USED Extractor Motors For sale
 Motors are checked and ran before Shipped
 Prices starting  29.95 plus a small shipping fee 99.95  rolleyes

Sold too you By
 "Dumpster Diving Daytona Dot Com" grin
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Acebird
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« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2010, 09:15:56 AM »

Any small variable speed motor should work.   I have seen old ceiling fans used.  (free ones)

Looky here:

can't post link to this forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,30300.20.html

It is under the topic of "extractor questions" second page.  It is a picture of a simple extractor in development using a ceiling fan motor.
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deknow
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« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2010, 09:58:17 AM »

Business Op Knocking at the Door

USED Extractor Motors For sale
 Motors are checked and ran before Shipped
 Prices starting  29.95 plus a small shipping fee 99.95  rolleyes

Previously used to extract excess fat from senior citizens (as well as excess cash from their wallets).  Acceptable for use to extract honey as well.
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ronwhite3030
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« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2011, 02:55:09 AM »

Can someone tell me for sure if this will work with this motor that knows more about motors then I do.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/search.shtml?searchQuery=5jj60&op=search&Ntt=5jj60&N=0&sst=subset


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BlueBee
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« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2011, 12:24:15 PM »

Ron

You’ve got a 120VAC single phase AC induction motor here.  Fractional HP motors are not typically “capacitor start” but I can’t tell that without a picture of the whole motor.  A capacitor start motor will typically have a cylinder like metal bulge on it, under which the starting capacitor is located.  Assuming no bulge, a Grainer type controller would probably work.

However the one you picked is not the best choice.  The problem is that Grainer controller has a max current rating of 2.5amps, whereas the motor has a current rating of 4.6amps.  This means starting the motor might burn up that Grainer controller.

If you wanted to experiment, a 600watt light dimmer switch from your local hardware store might work as some others have suggested in this post.  A 600 watt dimmer is good to 5amps.  The problem with dimmers is they’re usually designed for resistive loads like light bulbs.  An AC motor is an inductive load that causes some lag in the current and this can mess up the Triac in the dimmer.  

I like Hardwood’s treadmill motor idea myself.  Treadmills use DC motors instead of AC motors.  AC induction motors are designed to run best at a fixed constant RPM.  That is because their speed is a really a function of the AC power line frequency (60Hz) and not the voltage.  When you just cut voltage by using a dimmer, the motor still wants to run at 1725 rpm (in this case).  However with less voltage, the motor makes less torque and it slows down due to the loss of torque.  You get the illusion of speed control because you’re losing torque.  

The DC motor in a treadmill would be a good match here since they have high starting torque and their speed can be controlled without a loss of torque.  You can buy low cost DC motors from places like www.surpluscenter.com for under $40, but they don’t come with a speed controller.  That’s why I really like Hardwoods suggestion!  You can get a free motor AND free speed controller from people adverse to exercise.   As hardwood says, it won’t be long now before they start putting them along side the road!
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 05:36:22 PM by BlueBee » Logged
Bee-Bop
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« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2011, 01:14:18 PM »

Here is a picture of my unfinished extractor, using a treadmill motor, the control box is yet to bee placed.
The treadmill belt is if I remember correctly is 5 grove, the pulley on the basket shaft is a smooth weld on type farm pulley hub.
Does a real good job.



Finished with control box and fan assembly


Bee-Bop
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« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2011, 01:32:38 PM »

Nice work, Bee Bop

Thanks for the photos.

Another good performance feature about treadmill DC motors is they have a heavy flywheel attached to the shaft (see Bee Bops photos).  This should help smooth out any speed jitters of the extractor.  That is what inertia is used for.  The only downside is the weight of the flywheel; these can be hefty motors! 

If you don’t have a weight set and want to do some biceps curls, try curling a couple DC treadmill motors!  Especially the ones that are not permanent magnet motors.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 05:38:03 PM by BlueBee » Logged
ronwhite3030
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« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2011, 01:09:48 AM »

I think I mighnt just buy this motor and call it good.

http://www.allbrands.com/products/abp15234.html#Click for Related
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Acebird
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« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2011, 06:46:29 PM »

Quote
Finished with control box and fan assembly

I don't get the fan on that DC drive.  What is your plan to load and unload frames?
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rdy-b
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« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2011, 12:46:24 AM »

 in the first pic it shows the top is two pieces-probably has a hinged lid as half the top-nicely done-RDY-B
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hankdog1
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« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2011, 02:02:28 AM »

Just get ya a good electric motor a hydraulic pump, valve block, flow control valve, hoses, a tank, and a hydraulic motor.  You'll end up spending alot of money but you'll have the only extractor that will do everything you want and never be over loaded.  Hehehe like i always say when in doubt overkill lol.  Not really an option but being a hydraulic man i've often thought about building such a contraption.
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« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2011, 08:51:29 AM »

Quote
Hehehe like i always say when in doubt overkill lol.  Not really an option but being a hydraulic man i've often thought about building such a contraption.

You don't have to any post hole digger will do the job be it hydraulic or PTO shaft.
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« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2011, 10:57:13 AM »

Quote
Can someone tell me for sure if this will work with this motor that knows more about motors then I do.

Sorry I didn't see this at first.  It won't work.  The control is a for a universal motor like a sewing machine motor.  Universal motors will have brushes and commutator.  You either have to run this single speed or get an inverter drive for it.  I would advise against and inverter drive on a heavy inertial load.  There is such a thing as a soft start which is like a fixed accelerating inverter drive but will come to full speed in about 10 seconds.  These drives are not going to be cheap if they are going to last.

For the hobbyist I would recommend that you do the speed variations with pulley drives and get the soft start with belt tension.
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« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2011, 02:17:18 PM »

I don’t know Acebird.  Although Ron’s motor looks far older than I am, there is no identifier I see that says it’s a “Universal Motor”.  I stand by my assertion that it is an AC induction motor.  Universal motors do have brushes and commutators as you stated and that means they can run from AC and DC power, hence the term “Universal”.

The name plate on the photo though says “AC Motor” (not “Universal Motor”) and that normally means you’ve got an AC induction motor.  Invented by Tesla in 1892.  They have no brushes and instead rotate by magnetic induction from the stator to the rotor.  Hence they are called AC induction motors.

I think we both agree Ron’s motor isn’t the best motor for an extractor!  However you don’t need an inverter to run one of your universal motors.   The old drills from the 1970s used “universal motors” and controlled the speed via a rheostat.   A dimmer switch (Triac) is a modern day replacement of the old rheostat.  The rheostat worked, but the speed regulation wasn’t real good in those old drills, but it worked.

An inverter is an expensive piece of hardware and is used when you need to implement speed control on a AC induction motor WITHOUT the loss of torque.  This is how most electric cars are powered.

I still think Bee-Bop has the best idea for a home made design!
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Acebird
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« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2011, 02:58:07 PM »

Bluebee my reply is to the question about the drive control that was selected (to be used on a universal motor)  The motor in the photograph is an AC motor and not a universal motor.

Quote
This is how most electric cars are powered.

It is possible, I don't know for sure but it would seem to me that having a DC power source they would use DC motors.  Otherwise they have to chop up the DC into AC on the power end.
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« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2011, 03:33:33 PM »

Sorry Ace, my mistake, I didn’t read your response as closely as I should have.  You did say Universal controller, not motor.

AceBird, you’re right, both AC and DC motors have been used in the past to power cars.  They are both WAY more efficient than an internal combustion engine (if you don’t count the loss of efficiency burning coal to make electricity).  The reason modern electric cars are using AC induction motors is cost and reliability.  AC induction motors are very simple machines and have no brushes to wear out.  They can run trouble free for decades.  You can create DC motors that are brushless too, but the costs of rare earth metals (and IP) for the PM magnets are prohibitive.

The downside to going with a AC induction motor for a car engine is the need for a 3 phase inverter to control the frequency and the voltage amplitude of the power being feed to the motor.  This allows you to control the speed of an AC motor without the loss of torque.  

Ace, are you going to build yourself a home-made extractor at some point?  Sounds like a fun project.
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Acebird
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« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2011, 04:11:37 PM »

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Ace, are you going to build yourself a home-made extractor at some point? Sounds like a fun project.


Where have you been?
It is within this post.  Maybe I should make my own post.

http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,30300.20.html

It uses a ceiling fan motor.


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« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2011, 04:38:02 PM »

AceBird, I must have been out winterizing my bees and missed your old post. 

Thank you so much for the link back, it was a joy to read.  Ace, you are an innovator; that is for sure!  Like I said before, I think you’re our Thomas Edison of bee keeping.  You keep us on our toes.

It will be interesting to see how well your design works. 
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« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2011, 05:45:51 PM »

I saw one a couple of months ago that was made from a vacuum cleaner motor, and a dimmer switch.  To make it reversible he simple twisted the belt.  Changing the path of the belt from a circle pattern to a figure eight. 
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« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2011, 06:09:10 PM »

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Changing the path of the belt from a circle pattern to a figure eight.

They make reversible AC motors.  But I really don't see the need.
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« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2011, 06:23:13 PM »

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It will be interesting to see how well your design works. 


I'll make it work.  One way or tother.  I don't know much about bees but machinery is water off a ducks back.
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« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2011, 03:15:28 PM »

Acebird's comments are worth noting. There are a variety of AC motor types available.  A shaded pole type AC motor requires a capacitor and is not easily made reversable, if at all. Some AC motor require a capacitor to run and others just require one to start.  Be careful before placing an order for one.  Plus torque rating is also worth considering. Some AC motor types have poor starting torque capability.
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« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2011, 05:45:31 PM »

So I finally got my DC motor and controller, bought a treadmill off craigslist for $25.00 and stripped it. the only thing I have to do now is get a bushing for the pulley that was on the roller and attach it to the handcrank shaft.
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