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Author Topic: Screw the Republican establishment!  (Read 4783 times)
AllenF
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« Reply #40 on: September 18, 2010, 02:19:47 PM »

The thing with lobbyist is, the side with the most money, has more power.   At least today, the NRA has good money and good power.   But what about several years from now?  And it is like that with every bill out there, the side with the most money gets their bill passed.  This is why I do not like lobbyist.  And most politicians that can no longer get elected, set up shop on K street to start making the big bucks.
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kathyp
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« Reply #41 on: September 18, 2010, 02:29:43 PM »

so you make sure that you elect conservatives and when they become lobbyists, hopefully the lobby for conservative issues.  and...you make sure that you support the lobbying groups that support conservative issues.  that's about the only reason i belong to the NRA.  i don't use any of their services.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
bigbearomaha
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« Reply #42 on: September 18, 2010, 02:33:50 PM »

 I disagree with you kathy only on the fact that you describe the ideal purpose for having a paid lobbyist.  

Even in that situation, they do not need to pay someone or make available loads of dollars and gifts made available through said lobbyists to the politicians.

Like you said, the politicians know where the money is and they know what they have to do to get it.

if you wave a steak in front of a pack of dogs, is it only their fault they come to take it?

or does the person waving the steak around have some responsibility for putting it out there to begin with?

I say fine, if you think paid lobbyists can fulfill the ideal of representing people who don't have the time to mail or otherwise contact the politicians and can track the proposed laws more consistently,  I could go for that IF there was a rule saying those paid lobbyists could not wave the steak out to the pack.

eliminate gifts and all the other perks these big time lobbyists offer to the politicians, let them earn their money they get from the NRA and other groups who purport to represent the people at large on certain issues without bribing the politicians.

kinda like immigration discussion, take away the jobs and they will quit coming.

well, take away the money from the politicians offered by the lobbyists and see how much things change.

Big Bear
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AllenF
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« Reply #43 on: September 18, 2010, 03:14:30 PM »

We should not have to pay someone to payoff the people we elect to represent us.  They should listen to us from the start.  Cut out the money.    Corporations, parties, unions, and large groups have more money that the individual.  They can get their laws passed with all that money.  Laws for them not for the individual. 
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kathyp
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« Reply #44 on: September 18, 2010, 03:40:10 PM »

you all are correct in your analysis, but that's not the reality of the world we live in....and really never has been.  the other thing to consider is the sheer volume of the bills that go through congress.  there is probably no way for the average citizen to keep up with all of them. 

i'm not saying the lobbyists are the ideal answer, but what would be the alternative? there have always been lobbyists. at least they and congress are more regulated in what they can and can't do than they used to be. 

IF you could force congress to address only one issue in each bill, as some states do, we'd have a better chance of keeping track.  if they were not able to put crap into every bill as it goes through or IF we could limit the time that they had to legislate, maybe we the people could keep track on our own.

what is a lobbying group?  it is a way for people with similar interests to organize and present their concerns...and threats if those concerns are not addressed.....and rewards (votes being the most powerful) if they are.  it might be true that we could get rid of the lobbies if the congress were forced to spend time in their own communities and states.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
bigbearomaha
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« Reply #45 on: September 18, 2010, 08:55:19 PM »

that still doesn't address the gifts (bribes) that lobbyists give to the politicians.  there is absolutely no need to allow gifts of any kind by lobbyists to politicians.

like I said, let there be paid lobbyists by groups of community organizations to monitor certain issues.  fine, shut off the money is what I am saying.

The lobbyist groups don't need to pay the politicians to monitor bills and congressional voting.

as the old saying goes ...  follow the money.

Big Bear

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AllenF
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« Reply #46 on: September 18, 2010, 09:00:32 PM »

Being a politician use to be a service.   Cut off the money  and they might work for us again.   Install term limits and there would be no need for the money.  The money is all just donations to the war chest for re-election.  With out the money, they would only listen to us and be our representative in Washington again. 
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Bee Happy
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« Reply #47 on: September 18, 2010, 09:13:43 PM »

There's a lot of legal and constitutional resaons it shouldn't be done, but I once thought it would be a great idea to select new senators and representatives for candidacy by a lottery system, a true selection of an average citizen to serve in office and then go home. I love the idea, except there's just as much wrong with it as there is right.
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AllenF
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« Reply #48 on: September 18, 2010, 09:29:19 PM »

What about giving the states back the right to choose their Senator in Washington as it was in the beginning?
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thebalvenie
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Vote Ron Paul!!!!!!!!!!!!!


« Reply #49 on: September 20, 2010, 04:08:22 PM »

I can't vote for him because he is not running for anything in my district.

Question, I like Ron Paul's voting record and ideas, and he has tried to push term limits through since the 70's.   But he has been in congress for 13 years straight now, right?  Or am I mistaken?


you're not mistaken at all.  he continues to run so he can fight the good fight (in so much as what i can tell i think he runs because he believes he's serving the people and fighting the FED and enlightening the rest of congress on economic policy)

he also doesn't participate the in the congressional pension plan...meaning he gives back what he's awarded every year...so when he does retire he won't be sitting on a beach sipping Mai-tai's at our expense.....
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Mason
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« Reply #50 on: September 28, 2010, 02:34:17 PM »

Explain to me the difference in a lobby and a union?  The only difference I see is that all unions are left leaning and only about half of lobbyist are left leaning.  I just don't see how you can have a conversation about lobbyist without mentioning unions.

Term limits are something that we as Americans CAN do without legislature.  We just need to hit the polls and vote out incumbents.  Yes,  there are some incumbents like maybe Ron Paul and others that are probably good for the country on both sides of the aisle.  These people I look at like a BB size piece of gold in a big pile of poop.  It's just not worth rooting around in the poop to save a BB size piece of gold.  It's time America flushes them all.  It's up to us to limit their terms at least for now.

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Jerrymac
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« Reply #51 on: September 28, 2010, 04:50:50 PM »

Term limits are something that we as Americans CAN do without legislature. 

The problems are...

A lot of people vote along party lines. They think I am a Democrat/Republican and so they vote Democrat/Republican.

Then they look for a name on the ballot that they know (That is heard of) and vote for that person.

They don't have a clue what they are voting for.

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AllenF
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« Reply #52 on: September 28, 2010, 08:47:47 PM »

Term limits are something that we as Americans CAN do without legislature. 

The problems are...

a lot of people vote along party lines. They think I am a Democrat/Republican and so they vote Democrat/Republican.

Then they look for a name on the ballot that they know (That is heard of) and vote for that person.

They don't have a clue what they are voting for.



Nobody wants to vote for a losing person, so most vote for someone they think will win.    So they vote for a person they know or heard of and think will have the best chances of winning.  Nobody wants their team to come in second.
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bigbearomaha
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« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2010, 07:21:30 AM »

that's might be because they think they are on team dem or team rep instead of understanding they are on team America.  by playing the party game, they are bringing our biggest team down down down.

Big Bear
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tecumseh
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« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2010, 08:47:53 AM »

mason writes:
Explain to me the difference in a lobby and a union?

tecumseh:
I suspect this might sound way to academic for this crowd, but the intellectually honest thing to do would be to BEGIN to describe how they are the same and how they are different.  not one or the other, but both.

if you cannot discern the differences (I can certain see how they might be somewhat the same) then a trip to your local eye doctor might be an excellent idea.

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BjornBee
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« Reply #55 on: September 29, 2010, 09:50:19 AM »

mason writes:
Explain to me the difference in a lobby and a union?

tecumseh:
I suspect this might sound way to academic for this crowd, but the intellectually honest thing to do would be to BEGIN to describe how they are the same and how they are different.  not one or the other, but both.

if you cannot discern the differences (I can certain see how they might be somewhat the same) then a trip to your local eye doctor might be an excellent idea.



Wow!  Thanks for the crap on the crowd comment. Real Classy!
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Vibe
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« Reply #56 on: September 29, 2010, 11:03:55 AM »

Explain to me the difference in a lobby and a union?  
A Lobby is formed from a group of like minded people on a particular issue - the members contribute to forward that particular issue and are free NOT to contribute if the lobby does not do as it is instructed.
A Union is formed from people in a common line of work using the collective bargaining power of the union. The union can support what ever issue it darned well pleases and the members contribute at pain of losing their jobs if they do not.
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ronwhite3030
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« Reply #57 on: September 29, 2010, 11:26:55 AM »

Get rid of all parties and put in term limits.

term limits just make us lazy and not pay attention to politics but it will "fix" the problem itself, if we pay attention ourselves we should be able to vote the asses out and let the ones that are still working for us stay. politicians work for us! We don't work so that they can get rich on us and that is what those old asses have been doing for years.

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BjornBee
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« Reply #58 on: September 29, 2010, 12:13:44 PM »

Explain to me the difference in a lobby and a union?  
a Lobby is formed from a group of like minded people on a particular issue - the members contribute to forward that particular issue and are free NOT to contribute if the lobby does not do as it is instructed.
a Union is formed from people in a common line of work using the collective bargaining power of the union. The union can support what ever issue it darned well pleases and the members contribute at pain of losing their jobs if they do not.

I once worked and was forced to belong to the union. It was a state job. Well, actually I did not belong to the union, but they took their automatic fees from my paycheck anyways.

Then they used these fees to basically put out a monthly union magazine indicating what rallies to attend, who to vote for, who to boycott, and what issues to back. Seems many blindly followed the drumbeat.

I'm glad I quit long ago. Was the worst paying job I ever had.

I had one member tell me if not for the union he would not have a job. I told him I did not denigrate myself like that, and was waiting for the day my assignment was over so I could go back to private sector. I don't think he understood a word I was speaking...because he did not have any of his own thoughts....only the unions.
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kathyp
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« Reply #59 on: September 29, 2010, 12:20:54 PM »

Quote
Wow!  Thanks for the crap on the crowd comment. Real Classy!
 


 grin

some teach, some lecture.  they are not the same things.
 


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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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