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Author Topic: On The Right Track.....  (Read 3920 times)
beek4018
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« on: September 14, 2010, 12:19:30 PM »

"The deficit is nearly $1.3 trillion in the first 11 months of the fiscal year, the Treasury report also showed Monday. That's $111 billion or 8% lower than the same period in fiscal 2009." Source: marketwatch.com

The deficit increased every year between 2001 and 2008 with a total increase of $4.35 trillion. Source: treasurydirect.gov

Maybe it is slow, but it does seem to be working
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AllenF
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« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2010, 05:55:53 PM »

U. S. Treasury Department report to Congress: U.S debt to rise to $19.6 trillion by 2015.      http://www.federalbudget.com/


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beek4018
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« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2010, 06:01:57 PM »

Based on what? And whse budget?  Extrapolations that far into the future are meaningless.
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AllenF
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« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2010, 06:07:51 PM »

(Reuters) - The U.S. debt will top $13.6 trillion this year and climb to an estimated $19.6 trillion by 2015, according to a Treasury Department report to Congress.

The report that was sent to lawmakers Friday night with no fanfare said the ratio of debt to the gross domestic product would rise to 102 percent by 2015 from 93 percent this year.

"The president's economic experts say a 1 percent increase in GDP can create almost 1 million jobs, and that 1 percent is what experts think we are losing because of the debt's massive drag on our economy," said Republican Representative Dave Camp, who publicized the report.

He was referring to recent testimony by University of Maryland Professor Carmen Reinhart to the bipartisan fiscal commission, which was created by President Barack Obama to recommend ways to reduce the deficit, which said debt topping 90 percent of GDP could slow economic growth.

The U.S. debt has grown rapidly with the economic downturn and government spending for the Wall Street bailout, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and the economic stimulus. The rising debt is contributing to voter unrest ahead of the November congressional elections in which Republicans hope to regain control of Congress.

The total U.S. debt includes obligations to the Social Security retirement program and other government trust funds. The amount of debt held by investors, which include China and other countries as well as individuals and pension funds, will rise to an estimated $9.1 trillion this year from $7.5 trillion last year.

By 2015 the net public debt will rise to an estimated $14 trillion, with a ratio to GDP of 73 percent, the Treasury report said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN088462520100608
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AllenF
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« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2010, 06:19:40 PM »

This might work also......... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_bankruptcy 
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CountryBee
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« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2010, 09:01:11 PM »

I am glad we are not using credit as a country! grin  Did obama turn us around?
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« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2010, 09:15:53 PM »

snip..
Did obama turn us around?

tecumseh:
I would say no.  However I would  suggest that governmental physical policy employed first by Mr Bush (a bit late, but what the heck) and then by Mr Obama seems to have 'worked' in a classical Keynesian manner.

some economist consider the Keynesian remedy employed by both Bush and Obama as being somewhat timid.  so I guess???  from that you might expect the response to also be slow.
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« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2010, 06:32:01 AM »

Well, I guess all the people that voted for him got their "change"! tongue  Too bad all my family and children have to live with the results of it.
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beek4018
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« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2010, 10:42:18 AM »

Gee Country Bee.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but the economy was already in the tank when Obama took over.  Now, he hasn't fixed it as quickly as we might like, but there are signs of growth.  I'm not blaming it all on Bush, but don't forget, TARP (the original stimulus) was on his watch.  There IS growth in GDP, and while jobs are lagging, they are always the last thing to come back in a recession. That's just how that works. 

And, those tax breaks conservatives are so hot to make permanent were in force when we got into this trouble (under Bush), so why would we imagine making them permanent would fix our problems when they may well have been part of the problem to begin with.  Clearly they did not stimulate massive growth and subsequent tax revenue as their supports claim they will. Trickle down DOES NOT WORK because businessmen these days are all about making as much for themselves as quickly as they can before they get replaced by their boards.  Except for small businesses, they don't give a darn about building anything long term.

And for the record, I'm tired of hearing people like you whine about the personal burden on your family.  We are all suffering with this.  Where were you when Bush took us from a surplus to massive deficits by way of an unaccounted for war run completely off the books?  Iraq was never in the budget, but was done completely off of supplemental funding bills, so they wouldn't have to account for it or justify it publicly. There's a recipe for fiscal responsibility.  Did you complain about that then?  We're all paying for that too.
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L Daxon
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« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2010, 10:59:44 AM »

beekeep4018:

Yes, the economy was already in the tank in 2008, but the Dems had controlled the purse stings in Congress for 2 years at that point.  Bush should have been vetoing spending bills left and right.

Would I defend what Bush did when he was in office?  Not on your life.  He was billed as a conservative (maybe on social policy) but his economics were atrocious.  Passing more entitlements (prescription drug benefits anyone) when Social Security and Medicare were already  on the threshhold of bankruptcy was absolutely irresponsible.
Bush and Rove thought they would build an enduring Republican majority by taking a page out of the Democratic play book and buy votes/loyalty with $$$$ goodies from Washington and it backfired on them -- and the country -- big time.
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linda d
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« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2010, 11:10:13 AM »

you mean the unaccounted for war that the current president voted for when he was in congress?  Gee, last  I checked, the president can't "make" law, only sign or veto them.

if he has  enough cronies from his party in congress, he can exert pressure to get something he wants done accomplished.

lets see, what party was in control of congress while bush was president?

wow, it looks like both democrats and republicans have dirty hands in this whole thing but want to keep playing games with the public by pretending they didn't.  it was the "other guys"

I have to stand up for country bee here because if he didn't speak for his own family, you would be criticizing him for speaking on behalf of others and that he should speak only for himself, which he did.

but, I have to give you credit, you have to be the second biggest party hack apologist on the forums here.  good luck with that.

Big Bear

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beek4018
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« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2010, 11:28:33 AM »

Sorry Big Bear, your Republican/Conservative inability to let a little thing like the facts get in the way of your good  time is showing again.....

Yes, the democrats were in control of congress for the last two years of Bush's presidency.  But you might want to do the math on how long the Iraq war lasted.  The repubs. had control of congress and the purse strings for most of it. They let Bush put through billions of dollars in war spending off the books.

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Bee Happy
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« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2010, 11:30:48 AM »

The National Debt Road Trip

I know, he "claims" to have adjusted for inflation. Nobody knows who he is - no alarms are being raised about this on CNN, clearly some kind of smoke and mirrors conservative propaganda... etc. etc. etc..
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bigbearomaha
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« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2010, 11:41:42 AM »

beek, one of these days, we're gonna have to take up a collection to get you reading lessons or something.

I am not a republican.  sorry to burst your hateful little bubble for ya there.

 I am not a "conservative" as you would define it,which is identical  to a political party.

no, I will leave that to shills and party hacks like you.

you still cannot admit that the democrats are as much to blame for the mess out there as the repubs.  you continue to engage in finger pointing and playing the blame game. while I try to continue to point out that ALL of them are to blame, not just one.

you need to get a grip on yourself and put the talking points printout down for awhile so you can see what people are really saying.

Big Bear
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beek4018
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« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2010, 12:57:27 PM »

PUHLESE, Big Bear

As far as I can tell your lack of commitment to any viewpoint and blaming them all makes it really clear that you stand for NOTHING.

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AllenF
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« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2010, 02:00:04 PM »

These are things I know.   My 4 year old son is 40,000 dollars in debt for his part of the national debt.   This goes up everyday.   One can not borrow their way out of debt.  I work construction.   I am a small business.   I am in there for the long haul.   I work for people and corporations that have a whole lot more money than I.   When these people or corporations do not spend money, we the little people do not work.  The housing market controls the economy.  You are not going to get people to buy homes until they have jobs.  You are not going to employ these people without small businesses.  You are not going to going to start more small businesses without lending money (SBA loans and bank loans).  You can not help these small businesses by killing them with government paper work and taxes.   
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beek4018
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« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2010, 02:19:01 PM »

I think it's a bit simplistic to say the housing market controls the economy.  Get a grip on yourself, and your place in the world.

It controls one aspect of the economy. It's an important aspect, but it is NOT the entire economy. It's a bit more complex than that.
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AllenF
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« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2010, 03:14:44 PM »

So you believe that the economy will correct itself without the housing market?  Look at the end of every recession we have had in the last 40 years.     
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bigbearomaha
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« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2010, 03:55:19 PM »

no beeker, you got it wrong, as usual.

I stand for individuals, people coming together to decide what is best . not some clandestine rich boy clubs pooling their money and picking their buddies to push an agenda that only benefits part of society.

Just because  I don't stand for party politics doesn't mean I stand for nothing, but it figures that's all that you would see.

some of us beleive in the people as a whole. as in...

of the people, by the people, for the people.

someday, you might actually figure that out.  until then, we'll pray for ya.

Big Bear
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beek4018
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« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2010, 04:00:02 PM »

"You'll pray for me....

Oh yeah, Big Bear there you go hiding behind God.  You've probably got a gun down there with you too.

Allen - Why am I not surprised that as usual you missed the point, or just can't/don't read.  I acknowledged that housing is part of the economy, but it's not all of it, and will not be all of the solution.  Just part of it.
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bigbearomaha
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« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2010, 05:30:24 PM »

 lau  lau  lau

wow dude, serious chip on that shoulder huh?   I don't know about "God" but when I pray to the Creator, that's not what I usually refer with.  (For the record,  I use the name "Teyocoyani" but hey, how could you expect to know that right?)

 I guess you also assumed I am a christian.  (further on the record,  I am topixqui) you silly little bee nut you.

if nothing else, you got one heck of an imagination there.  but, you do one heck of a job how easy you jump to conclusions and stereotype people.

at least I'm getting plenty for my entertainment dollar out of this thread.

Big Bear

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« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2010, 05:36:09 PM »

I am a Christian and I am sorry for you beek4018.  I do think of my children and the big tax bill, to get out of a hole we must stop digging.  That is how you fix it, not spend more.  How do you pay bills, you stop spending and save up right.  That is what my family does.  That is what my country has to do. Smiley 
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Bee Happy
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« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2010, 05:44:34 PM »

I think it's a bit simplistic to say the housing market tax breaks controls the economy.  Get a grip on yourself, and your place in the world...


Oops, while we were busy fighting over wrong and wrongerer, another boatload of US money just went into some political cronie's pocket
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« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2010, 06:53:07 PM »

Quote
And, those tax breaks conservatives are so hot to make permanent were in force when we got into this trouble


wow...i go away for a couple of days....   evil

so...please explain your above statement.  we were in a recession when bush too office.  the "surplus" that he supposedly wasted never had materialized.  it was a projected surplus and when the economy started to tank, and that began in '98, the projection proved to be incorrect.  in addition to the recession that bush inherited (to borrow from the current rulers) we then had 9/11 on top of it.  the tax cuts did what they always do.  they put money into the hands of the people and business and we had some of the biggest growth in GDP and lowest unemployment that we have ever had.  

what went wrong? a couple of things.  one had to do with the way housing is financed and you have to go back to the '70's and then again the '90's to see how groups like Acorn and the libs in congress engineered that.  Barney Franks and Chris Dodd were the ring leaders on that in the '90's. even in the early 2000's when bush was wanting to reform Freddie and Fannie, franks was assuring everyone that F&F were fine!  the other thing is that we over spent.  while war spending remained more or less stable, the spending by congress took huge jumps after the dems were elected. the dems are not the only big spenders, but as a group, they seem to have a particular talent for it.  because of the massive spending, when things in finance when wrong, we had no choice but to borrow.  unfortunately, we borrowed to grow government, rather than doing what we know works, and making the growth of  private enterprise the priority.

if you want to grow the economy, you grow the private sector.  because government produces nothing and earns nothing, you can not improve the economy or the pay down the debt through bigger government.  in order for the government to stimulate, it must take money from those who earn (private sector) or it must print money.  neither of those things work.

Obama has followed the FDR plan for getting out of trouble.  studies have been done on the great depression and the government programs that were supposed to fix it.

here's an article from the Cato Institute, not known for being conservative, that lists some of the studies that have been done.  if you read this through, you'll see that obama has followed the FDR mistakes like a blueprint.

 http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/v25n4/powell.pdf

here's some more.  these are about the same study, but one is an overview.
http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/FDR-s-Policies-Prolonged-Depression-5409.aspx
http://www.today.ucla.edu/portal/ut/misguided-government-policies-80595.aspx

it is interesting that the libs screamed about the tax cuts only helping the wealthy, but now want to extend the tax cuts to the "90%" who are middle class and benefited from the tax cuts.  you can't have it both ways, folks.

i don't know why this is so hard for libs to understand.  it's pretty simple stuff.  even Europe is getting it.

« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 08:13:49 PM by kathyp » Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2010, 08:10:38 PM »

 applause
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tecumseh
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« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2010, 09:37:45 PM »

country bee writes:
That is what my family does.  That is what my country has to do.

tecumseh:
you are confusing micro and macro issues.  a company, a corporation or a country does not need to abide by the ethics of 'neither a borrower nor lender be'.   if you individually are a good market capitalist you wouldn't want to adhere to this ethic either.  most real live folks don't have the wealth or the income that they can adhere to this moralistic nonsense anyway.

kathyp writes:
here's an article from the Cato Institute, not known for being conservative

tecumseh:
I assume you are saying this in pure jest?  Seems like everyone that knows what the Cato Institute does thinks they very much are?


another kathyp snip..
what went wrong? a couple of things.

tecumseh:
first your attempt to blame Acorn and Freddie Mac (+ a list of buggy men all dressed in democratic attire) is pretty lame.  I do give you credit for having a good imagination.

secondly I would say this list is a bit longer than 'a couple of things'.  I would also suggest that the beginning of the list goes way back before GW Bush showed up on the scene.  GW didn't make the matters any better by pursing a couple of wars (accounted for off the books... whatever that means).  GW also didn't make matter any better by allowing big oil to charge whatever they wanted (essentially mugging the public every time they filled up at the pump).  nor the addition of another governmental agency called homeland security... which can do just about anything it wants no matter what the law of the land might be and the fact that 80% of the personal are political appointees should make everybody especially happy.

long term a lot of well though out restriction and regulations that worked extremely well since the crash of '29 were tossed because some folks had the delusional thinking that deregulation would make things better.  it did make a handful of folks extremely rich.   

short term I lay more blame at the feet of Alan Greenspan than just about any other individual.  by the end of his tenure he appeared to me to be more concerned about making GW economic numbers look right than in doing his job.  when even he spoke of known excess he didn't seem to know how to apply the breaks.  ps... the federal reserve rate (one tool of the fed) does nothing for you the saver besides driving the earning of your saving account lower.  for the borrower it obviously means nothing either since at the same time the fed rate was lowered to almost zero home loan rates were rising... the net effect being the banks were making more and more on each and every loan they made.

 
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kathyp
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« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2010, 10:00:28 PM »

Quote
GW also didn't make matter any better by allowing big oil to charge whatever they wanted


1st, i think it would be easier on you if you learned cut, paste, and quote.  it would probably be easier to read your posts, but it's up to you.

2nd, you are very good at not speaking to the point and then throwing weird stuff like the above into the conversation.  since GWB and the US government don't own the oil companies, and up until this president (in my lifetime) it was pretty unthinkable the the government would dictate stuff like price of product....and then there's that whole OPEC thing that we don't control....you have no point.


Quote
first your attempt to blame Acorn and Freddie Mac (+ a list of buggy men all dressed in democratic attire) is pretty lame.  I do give you credit for having a good imagination.

this is a fact and you may go back and look at the congressional record and the acorn protests to verify.  the specific legislation was the Community Reinvestment Act and it was fist done in the '70's and revised and revitalized in the '90's.  there is also a public record of Frank asserting that F&F were in good shape and not to worry.

i agree with you about Homeland security.  unneeded and expensive.  same with TSA.  as for political appointees, that happens with every admin. in every single department.

Quote
long term a lot of well though out restriction and regulations that worked extremely well since the crash of '29 were tossed because some folks had the delusional thinking that deregulation would make things better.  it did make a handful of folks extremely rich.    


such as??

agree on Greenspan.  never liked him and he still doesn't have it right.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2010, 10:30:21 PM »

well thanks for the advice...

another kathyp snip..
since GWB and the US government don't own the oil companies, and up until this president (in my lifetime) it was pretty unthinkable the the government would dictate stuff like price of product

tecumseh:
you must be very young?

let see... I think up until about the time of Richard Nixon oil prices were very much controlled by the US Government via anti competition law.  Nixon tossed those out at about the end of his first term (got lots of money from the domestic oil folk for his reelection) which then set the stage for the first bank hoist (oil embargo) by our middle eastern friends.  Nixon  also installed wage and price control (which was really wage controls since no effort was given to holding down price of anything) during the same era.  You could 'get around' the wage controls if you were properly connected.  During WWII the entire country was on a system of wage and price controls (I think??? John Kenneth Galbreath ran this program for FDR).

I might suspect from you writing that you also think the fact that the price of gasoline and diesel at the pump (or by the barrel) has fallen and fallen since Mr Bush left office is purely a random event or perhaps some counter intuitive market force at play?

   
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« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2010, 10:56:52 PM »

the oil embargo came with our support of Israel in the '70's and then with our problems with Iran.  OPEC found it's power and used our actions as a way to  make a lot of money.  

yes, wage and price control, retirement age, etc. have been tried before and failed.  FDR had the most success with control, but even most of his actions were eventually overturned.  it's the same with tariffs and other trade interference.

what i am talking about if buying, dictating to, and threatening companies.  that's not to say that private companies have not been threatened before, and most notably, the banks by Franks, Dodd, and Co. but there has never been such a blatant attempt to dictate to businesses the way this admin has.

and no, i am not young.  

no, i don't think there was a grand conspiracy to keep oil prices high under bush. it's the left that has pushed for higher taxes on oil to intentionally drive the price up.  they are the ones who routinely block drilling on our own land.  at the moment, the price is down a bit because of the economic state of the world.  you think our prices are high, check out Europe.  they don't drive anywhere unless they have to.  less demand.  lower price.  if libs thought they could get away with it, they would have their 10 dollars a gallon, but so far they have been restrained by the fear of what it would do to the economy.

you are welcome for the advice.  if you are unsure how to work the quote icon, send me a PM and i'll walk you through it  grin
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2010, 08:06:29 AM »

grand conspiracy...
perhaps you need to reference Adam Smith and see what he has to say in regards to this?

like I said previously... perhaps you can construct a purely a random or perhaps counter intuitive market force at play in regards to fuel and energy prices during the Bush years.

another kathyp snip..
the oil embargo came with our support of Israel in the '70's and then with our problems with Iran.  OPEC found it's power and used our actions as a way to  make a lot of money. 

tecumseh:
you need to reference something more than Cliff Notes on modern history since the above is somewhat to totally incorrect.  During the first oil embargo (it should be point out that prior to this time the OPEC Cartel* drove the price of fuel in the US down to extremely low level to measure the elasticity of demand for that product... this bit of economic information is extremely valuable when you wish to promote a bit of price gouging**) Iran was totally controlled by the Shaw of Iran and the Iranian revolution would not play itself out until about 8 years or so later.  Up till this time what OPEC did would have exposed it to monopolist laws here which had held oil price per barrel at about $6/barrel.

fast forward 30 years later and the price of oil at the front side of the Bush administration is about $18/barrel.  what follows (at least if you follow the stock market) it 8 years of constant economic weakness and yet the $/barrel rises almost ten fold while the economy grows constantly weaker.

*the word Cartel is prima facia evidence that the participants are actively pursing monopolistic control over a given market.

**It became fairly evident at this time that one of the primary component of market equalibrum theory (sometimes referred to by the lay as free market theory) that acceptable SUBSTITUTES largely did not exist for this market.  This should suggest to the 'free market true believers' at least one reason why their beliefs are not always such a good match with real world reality.     
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bigbearomaha
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« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2010, 08:28:58 AM »

and your reference for all that is?  a different set of cliffs notes?

your good at demanding it of others yet guilty of not doing what you expect.

tsk tsk.

Big Bear
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« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2010, 11:19:58 AM »

tecumseh to Kathy:
you must be very young?

Kathy may be very young but I'm not.  Been an political activist all my life (as in wife of statewide elected official, wife of gubernatorial nominee, wife of state party chairman, paid campaign staff member and volunteer for candidates since Goldwater, etc.) and I agree with everything Kathy said, except one thing:  "the government doesn't produce anything."  Now that the government owns the majority stake in GM you could say the government is "producing" cars, but that just means GM cars will be undrivable/unsellable soon. grin

P.S. Kathy, I am very impressed with how well read you see to be and your ability to articulate your position.  What are you doing living in Oregon?
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« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2010, 01:01:59 PM »

i don't live in the crazy part.  i live out with the real people.  most of the state is conservative, but the people who glob together in the city have the numbers to make the rules.  smiley

i am only young at heart.  in years, i have been around a long time.   evil
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2010, 05:11:39 PM »

Does the government still own a stake in GM?  I remember the so called pay off that was only a small percentage of what they got but not sure about the stocks and government control on them.  I see they are closing pontiac and another division this year.  Good thing I drive and buy Fords. grin
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« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2010, 12:03:42 PM »

U.S. gov't owns a 60% stake in GM.  Feds announced about a week ago that they are going to begin selling off the stock (probably at a big loss) after the November elections and analysts think it could take a couple of years before it is all sold off.
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« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2010, 07:43:08 AM »

Wow, does anyone even want that stock now?  60% stake, sold soul to devil!  Poor GM, good thing I buy Fords only! grin
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« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2010, 02:09:02 PM »

I would still buy in at the "right" price.   Also, think about it, the government will not let a company fail when it owns part of it, but they may run it into the ground where it can never make a profit.   Think about anything the government tries.
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« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2010, 06:03:51 PM »

I found this on yahoo and thought is would be good for this tread to show the right track:

Ever since his inauguration, obama has said that he "inherited" the federal budget deficit from his predecessor. But immediately upon taking office, obama signed two new bills, the $787B stimulus and the $410B omnibus, that together about equal the $1.2T deficit he "inherited." Now that the fiscal year has ended, we see that the feds ran a $1.58T deficit for FY 2009, the all-time record and the first deficit over a trillion bucks. This deficit is 3.4 times the $459B deficit of 2008, and 10 times the $160B deficit of 2007, which began when Republicans were still in control of Congress. The reason obama is so keen on laying blame for the deficit on Bush is that he's caught in the Democrats' old lie: The president is responsible for the budget. The Democrats are aided and abetted in this lie by the establishment media. It is Congress that is responsible for budgets and budget deficits. Appropriations and budgets are set by the legislature not the president. And Congress has been controlled by Democrats for nearly 4 years now, during which time they've set the two highest deficits in history, this year's record being almost four times the Republican record of 2004. A survey the OMB's Historical Tables (page 21) going back to the inception of the income tax in 1913, shows that no matter how we look at it, a Republican Congress does better at balancing the budget than does a Democrat Congress. Republican Congresses have produced the most recent surpluses, the largest surpluses, the most back-to-back surpluses, the most surpluses under a president of either party, etc. This is why the Democrats and their media lapdogs lay the responsibility for budgets and deficits on the president
According to the OMB's Mid-Session Review (page 26) from August 25, total revenue for FY 2009 was down by $450 billion from FY 2008, yet the deficit was up by more than $1.1 trillion. So the problem is spending, not revenue. And in the middle of this massive shortfall, Congress is trying to saddle America with even more debt, with "initiatives" like healthcare reform, cap-and-trade, and "green" ventures. The latest OMB projections predict huge deficits for the next decade. These projections do not take into account Congress' spending spree in legislation that is still under consideration. Now, one could point out that the economy was doing just fine until Democrats took over Congress. But that would be so simplistic. It's undeniable, however, that barack hussein obama voted for the $700B TARP when he was the junior senator from Illinois in the U.S. Congress. He didn't vote "present;" he took responsibility.
So obama "inherited" the deficit from himself ... and the rest of Congress..
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« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2010, 06:28:21 AM »

 applause applause applause applause applause applause applause applause applause applause applause applause applause applause applause applause applause applause applause applause..............
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« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2010, 08:33:17 AM »

bigbearomaha writes:
and your reference for all that is?  a different set of cliffs notes?

your good at demanding it of others yet guilty of not doing what you expect.

tecumseh:
perhaps you might point out to the crowd here EXACTLY WHERE I demand anything of anyone?  you seem quite adapt at reading stuff into what I write that ain't there.

I did provide an Adam Smith reference... would a more exact quote do it for ya' brother.

I have tried in this little thread to correct a few inaccurate (false) statement here and the intermingling of historical events that did not happen till a decade later.  I can understand why some folks pushing an agenda might have a problem with that.


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« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2010, 09:37:35 AM »

tell you what.   I don't have a favorable opinion about your posts.  so in the interest of trying to not be argumentative,   I will say that I am done replying to you.

enjoy the bees.

Big Bear
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« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2010, 10:10:02 AM »

bigbear, it is a typical problem with the left that they have rewritten  history to fit their narrative and then only listen to/read the things that back what they already believe.  if you haven't read Adam Smith, you should.  it's good stuff.  it's also confusing and it's theory.  some parts of economics he seemed to understand, but lots of it drifted toward socialism.

i'd be hard pressed to see how Adam Smith is relevant here.  he's another one who never actually had to test his theory with real life....'

tecumseh i don't care if you carry on.  your passive/aggressive "snips" don't bother me.  i'd only suggest that you study history a little more and not draw your info from Huffington or Democrat.com, because i read those also  Wink
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2010, 05:35:43 PM »

 applause applause applause applause applause pop Here's some popcorn! grin
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« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2010, 07:26:05 AM »

snip...
wow dude, serious chip on that shoulder huh?

tecumseh:
I suspect from day one that this sounded a bit like projection and it appears I was quite correct.

kathyp writes:
if you haven't read Adam Smith, you should.  it's good stuff.  it's also confusing and it's theory.  some parts of economics he seemed to understand, but lots of it drifted toward socialism.

i'd be hard pressed to see how Adam Smith is relevant here.

tecumseh:
the writings of Adam Smith is thick and totally uninteresting unless you are somewhat to highly an economic geek of one sort or another.  it does yield  some understanding as to what folks understood in regards to economics some 200+ years ago.  his writing has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with socialism... actually his writing is about as far removed from socialism as anyone could image.  so much for some folks reading comprehension.

Adam Smith did make a fairly well referenced quote on the nature of conspiracy.  folks that jump to devaluing others by tossing the CONSPIRACY word would do well to reflect on his quote.

another kathyp snip..
it is a typical problem with the left that they have rewritten  history

tecumseh:
revisionism does not seem to be a total monopoly of the left.  you are making a most excellent case that the shoe fits very well on the other foot also.

 
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« Reply #44 on: September 21, 2010, 10:00:27 AM »

Quote
his writing has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with socialism... actually his writing is about as far removed from socialism as anyone could image.  so much for some folks reading comprehension.

not so.  he writes about the need for better conditions for workers and for them to have more say in conditions and pay (paraphrased).  when unions came about, those were their demands.  unions and Marxism go hand in hand. 

his thinking was different in that he thought that the rewarded worker would work harder.  he got almost everything right  but that.  the worker only works harder when he is rewarded for his work, not just because he works.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2010, 07:46:27 AM »

snip..
unions and Marxism go hand in hand.

tecumseh:
so why does communism in operation (not theory) ALWAYS shut down unions and guilds first?

the snip does suggest, at least to me, that your extreme bias is showing.

it is also quite evident that your understanding of Adam Smith is extremely limited.  most economic historians peg Adam Smith as the earliest apologist for the mercantile class (in Europe).  which is to say he was on the payroll of the merchant class and he pushed their agenda.  at that juncture in time guilds may have existed but unions were not even on the horizon for another 100 years. 

Adam Smith is also commonly considered to be the founding father of market based (sometime call 'free market'* theory)  economic thought.  Adam Smith's work was what folks now might call descriptive science... as such it was not really a testable theory.  Historically 'that' would come about much later.

*free market-- about the best case of oxymoronic word usage one can discover, since it is in total contradiction to some of the basic tenants of market based theory.   
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