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Author Topic: What is fair  (Read 1732 times)
Irwin
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« on: September 12, 2010, 08:31:47 AM »

By Rush Limbaugh:

I think the vast differences in compensation between victims of the September 11 casualty and those who die serving our country in Uniform are profound. No one is really talking about it either, because you just don't criticize anything having to do with September 11. Well, I can't let the numbers pass by
because it says something really disturbing about the entitlement mentality of
this country. If you lost a family member in the September 11 attack, you're
going to get an average of $1,185,000. The range is a minimum guarantee of
$250,000, all the way up to $4.7 million..
If you are a surviving family member of an American soldier killed in action,
the first check you get is a $6,000 direct death benefit, half of which is taxable.



Next, you get $1,750 for burial costs. If you are the surviving spouse, you get
$833 a month until you remarry. And there's a payment of $211 per month for each child under 18. When the child hits 18, those payments come to a
screeching halt.



Keep in mind that some of the people who are getting an average of $1.185 million up to $4.7 million are complaining
that it's not enough. Their deaths were tragic, but for most, they were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Soldiers put themselves in harms way FOR ALL OF US, and they and their families know the dangers.. (Actually, soldiers are put in harms way by politicians and commanding
officers.)



We also learned over the weekend that some of the victims from the Oklahoma City bombing have
started an organization asking for the same deal that the September 11 families
are getting. In addition to that, some of the families of those bombed in the
embassies are now asking for compensation as well.



You see where this is going, don't you? Folks, this is part and parcel of over 50 years of entitlement politics in this country. It's just really sad. Every time a pay raise comes up for the military, they usually receive next to
nothing of a raise. Now the green machine is in combat in the Middle East while their families have to survive on food stamps and live in low-rent housing.  Make sense?



However, our own US Congress voted themselves a raise. Many of you don't know that they only have to be in Congress one time to receive a pension that is more than $15,000 per month. And most are now equal to being millionaires plus. They do not receive Social Security on retirement because they didn't have to pay into the system. If some of the military people stay in for 20 years and get out as an
E-7, they may receive a pension of $1,000 per month, and the very people who
placed them in harm's way receives a pension of $15,000 per month.

I would like to see our elected officials pick up a weapon and join ranks before they start cutting out benefits and lowering pay for our sons and daughters who are now fighting.
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« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2010, 09:18:05 AM »

Irwin, you are going to make me cry before church today.  That is terrible for all the soldier's families and the soldiers!  What is wrong with our government?  When will it get fixed?  Too many questions.  Maybe we should overthrow them all and start over again, keep the constitution and then go from there.  I don't know....
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« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2010, 11:43:33 AM »

people have come to the point where they feel they should be compensated for every bad thing that happens.  look at the ads on TV.  "if you took X and anything bad happened to you after you took X, you may be entitled to compensation"!

the military has a contract with the people.  "i will fight for the constitution, and if i am killed while i serve...or even if i die during the term of my service, you will care for my family".  the general population has a contract with the lawyers.  "if anything bad ever  happens to me, even if it falls under the category of SH, you will get millions for me or my family...just because you can".
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« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2010, 01:03:51 PM »

I'm so mixed on this, cause how do you measure people who put themselves in harms way against the innocent. And just because you are the innocent, how is that an entitlement to reparations? I know that the biggest tragedy likely hasn't happened yet, and that is the asbestosis of the countless first responders and people of NYC who breathed in that air for days and days. Now and for 20 years we will see unmeasurable cancer rates in the people near the towers.

Back to the topic. I work for the Air Force now, after 21 years working for the Navy. I see young kids hours from shipping out every week and I'm honored to meet them and proud of everyone of them.

I flash back to a family Navy family when I was 17 (1975) and I befriended the two nephews who lived with the aunt who was only about 24 herself. Her husband was deployed somewhere, and she had no money to buy food with or anything else. Our politicians should be ashamed to keep the families of the Armed Forces in food-stamps especially in non-draft times.

My mom cleaned out our freezer and gave everything she could, asked her friends and they helped and my parents even paid her $5 an hour to teach me to drive (I could drive, but she didn't just want to give money to her, as sad as it was, she was still proud.

Today, it isn't much different - the military is still under-paid and kept at incomes Welfare Recipients would walk the streets in protest over.

Meanwhile, as tragic an event as 9-11 was, how is it the fault of NYC or Federal Gov.? Can anyone honestly say that it was avoidable? Sure, threats to the towers were known, but anticipating the simplicity of the events leading to the deaths that day are so out of the box, no one could have anticipated it.

Same goes Oklahoma City bombing, where the major difference was McVey and Reynolds did what American's would do - set a bomb and get out of there. We don't understand the meaning of blowing ourselves up, a definite disadvantage in the last 8 years of war.

I'm sorry to be passive in my thinking of the families of 9-11, their loved ones were at the wrong place at the wrong time and nothing more. The fire-fighters and police chose to put their lives at risk, as they do everyday and funds had to be set up to raise money for their survivors. Of course, I don't know if the 9-11 victims reparations would cover them since they "chose" to go in - if they aren't covered, and reparations come - that is shameful.

In any litigation in this country, we have "worth" caps on how monetary amounts are calculated - basically, what could that person earn in their life if it hadn't been cut short. Being Wall Street, I'm sure many of these people COULD have earned millions in their life-time, and I assume the huge swing in estimates of payout is hugely based on that. But as my wife said "The only ones who will make out are the lawyers in the end."

It is sad, but whether we spent 8 years in Iraq for the wrong cause and could have spent that money in Afghanistan where it would have been better served, this country has spent TRILLIONS in reparations already in the lives of everyone who has died or been harmed mentally or physically in these wars and the back breaking cost to every man, woman and child in our country who has had to suffer the economic consequences of the last decade.

Thank God that this didn't happen 3 hours later, in the Trade Centers the estimates would have been 50 thousand people or more, most tourists making their way slowly to the top. Every life lost was senseless and tragic, but how is paying out another billion or more going to make any of this right?!
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« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2010, 01:13:22 PM »

people have come to the point where they feel they should be compensated for every bad thing that happens.  look at the ads on TV.

What amazes me is the number of TV Lawyer law-suits that air concerning products and medications that are STILL being sold and NOT even a warning has been issued concerning meds, etc..

When a commercial is 2 minutes long and the first 90 seconds tell you that you will likely crap yourself, or projectile vomit (oh and the latest "Sudden Death Syndrome") that just opens the door for these ambulance chasers to start law-suits BEFORE a product even makes it to samples at your doctors office. It is a recipe for failure.

I think you are right, at some point we need to be responsible for ourselves. I think though that having to sign a waiver each time your trusted doctor writes you a new script is coming, especially if National Healthcare gets its way.

Yep, if you serve this country, I agree that it is the job of the citizenship to preserve you and your family's security if anything happens to you. That is one contract this government should write.
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« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2010, 01:16:34 PM »

the NYC police and fire had excellent survivor and retirement benefits.  they have excellent medical also.  i don't have a problem with covering extra care costs, but i don't see paying a bonus for doing your job and having bad things happen.  they sign up for that risk just as we in the military do.  they have made a contract with the tax payers, just as we have.  i'm not sure why anyone should expect something in excess of that contract.

military pay has gotten better.  survivor benefits are better.  there are a number of agencies both in and out of the military to help military families if they need it.  when we were first in, we did qualify for food stamps.  didn't take them, but could have.  by the time my kids were serving, things were much better.  it does also come down to choices.  an 18 year old E1 probably ought to think long and hard about getting married and having a family....but so should an 18 year old fry cook.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2010, 01:20:59 PM »

Quote
that air concerning products and medications that are STILL being sold and NOT even a warning has been issued concerning meds,

if you read the possible side effects of any med, almost all that the TV lawyers are listing, applies to almost all drugs.  you can take aspirin and have a really bad reaction.  we still take aspirin.  should we be compensated if one of those bad things happens?   should aspirin be taken off the shelf.

with any drug there is a risk.  either don't take anything, or get informed and decide if the risk is worth it. 

back in the day....we had a hard time getting drug info.  now there is no excuse for not being informed and asking questions.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2010, 01:28:31 PM »

It is always a tragedy when a lot of people die at the same time. It is reported over and over and we see it many times on TV. But in 2001 the traffic death tally is 42,116. Over ten times the number that died September 11.


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« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2010, 01:35:14 PM »

personally,  I think the troubles started when people began to think of this country no longer as a land of opportunities, but a land of guarantees.

in times previous, no one had any higher hope than to be able to get a chance to be something or do something with their life that they chose, not a gov't or religion or someone else.

after awhile though, people began to expect guarantees. they wanted results in writing, "if this happens, then  I will get this..." etc...  Also commonly referred to as entitlements.

having an opportunity is no longer enough. for many people.  It still involves risk and there are no guarantees that the risk or opportunity will work out to your benefit.

people want to minimize risk.  They want assurances.  They want to skip steps and go from opportunity to successful results.  regardless of the effort or investment they make or don't make.

politicians have always catered to this in order to get themselves elected.  making promises, making assurances that they will get people the results without the risk, regardless of opportunity.

the old saying that you cannot serve two masters is fitting here.

politicians can serve all the people as a whole or they can serve a particular group of people, if you try to appeal to both, you will fail. so they settle for serving a specific group of people seeing as they will achieve their own success easier by catering to a smaller contingents whims in exchange for votes.

right back again to wanting guarantees, less risk. give it to me now.

Big Bear
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« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2010, 04:46:35 PM »

I think we should all take a tour of the White House, slip and fall on all th B.S. and sue the occupants!   evil
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« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2010, 05:29:47 PM »

 lau lau lau lau cheer
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« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2010, 09:59:48 PM »

That's a good one.   But it is all up to who can afford the better lawyers.
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« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2010, 08:12:53 AM »

may I assume you are believing in toto what a heroin addict has posted as fact?

humm....

even when I served (some 30 years ago at which time I made about $325/month) the death benefit for military folks was much larger than $6000.  don't know, but I would suspect the number is much larger now.  if you BELIEVE the military is underpaid then certainly you are using different data set than myself to come to that conclusion.

personally I don't think compensation for the victims of 9-11 or Oklahoma City is warranted or useful. 
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« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2010, 11:35:51 AM »

What the congressmen makes


http://whoknew.news.yahoo.com
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« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2010, 11:40:30 AM »

if you compare military salary and benefits to the same union job, then yes, the military is very much underpaid and they have the added burden of family separation, often poor living conditions, and being shot at.

personally, i'd rather see union salaries and benefits come way down. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2010, 11:48:16 AM »

Unions have served their purpose and should just go away.
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« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2010, 06:01:37 PM »

I agree!
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« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2010, 09:32:34 AM »

45 years ago, in Nam, GIs and Boeing employees were working side by side, doing the exact same thing. The boeing employ was making over 100,000 annually. The GI was making less than 6,000 annually.

Why would anyone think the GI was being underpaid?
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« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2010, 09:07:45 PM »

given the period (say 1965 thru 1972) and knowing something of what folks made at the time I would question the 100K number Iddee.  secondly my Dad was offered a job in Vietnam by Pam Am doing what he did and the $ offered was nothing like 100 K.  at least in theory they should not have been doing the same thing.

I think the $6000 for an E3 or E4 was about right for the time slot.  I seem to recall making about that figure as an E4 in 1972 
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« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2010, 11:07:57 PM »

so apparently only your experiences count?

Big Bear
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