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Author Topic: Book Burning  (Read 7379 times)
CountryBee
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« Reply #60 on: September 12, 2010, 08:18:15 PM »

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Jerrymac
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« Reply #61 on: September 12, 2010, 09:38:56 PM »

"I think it's highly offensive that he has done this to two of the holiest books in the world," Mr Patel said.

I guess I am pretty dense but I think these books are just like any other book. They are published the same as any other book. They are just man made objects. I really don't think God makes them in Heaven and then passes them down to Earth.
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CountryBee
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« Reply #62 on: September 13, 2010, 06:24:24 AM »

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CountryBee
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« Reply #63 on: September 13, 2010, 06:27:54 AM »

This is what I would call it!
"Sacrilege is the violation or injurious treatment of a sacred object. In a less proper sense, any transgression against the virtue of religion would be a sacrilege. It can come in the form of irreverence to sacred persons, places, and things."
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #64 on: September 13, 2010, 07:59:08 AM »

What makes something sacred?
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luvin honey
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« Reply #65 on: September 13, 2010, 10:52:59 AM »

What makes something sacred?
If people believe it to be so. While the Koran is not sacred to me, the Bible is. Since I would be hurt by willful burning of the bible, I would show the same respect to those revering the Koran.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #66 on: September 13, 2010, 11:21:54 AM »

There you see, I don't get that. I am assuming it is sacred to you because it is a copy of the word of God? By that reasoning then I could write down on a piece of paper some verse from the Bible from my memory And that should be just as sacred. I mean after all it is the word of God written on a piece of paper in ink, just like the copy of the Bible is.

OK here is one.

The house is on fire, or a tornado is coming. I would first think of my family members and get them out of there. I'm sure my dogs would follow me out the door, they better as I would not look too long and hard for them. If I have time to grab anything it would be my AR-15 and some ammo. But there is no way I am going to be running around looking for all the "sacred" bibles and get them out of there.

Would you?

Also a firefighter might run into a burning building to save an animal but I doubt very seriously he would run in to save a Bible.



The burning of the Koran or the Bible or the flag only has the power one gives it. If some one threatens to burn a bunch of Bibles or flags then people should shout out, "WAIT!!!! We have some old ones we will send you and you can burn those also." Suddenly there is no reason to do it. The power in the jester is now gone. More Bibles/Korans can be run off the printing presses and more flags can be sewn. They are just copies after all.

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« Reply #67 on: September 13, 2010, 11:37:43 AM »

jerrymac, you don't have to agree, but understanding is necessary.  understanding what people believe gives insight to how they behave.  i don't agree that strapping on explosives and blowing up innocent people gets you an honored place with Allah.  i do understand that that is what others believe and it is important that i know that. 
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« Reply #68 on: September 13, 2010, 11:46:48 AM »

I am trying to understand.

Remember something I started a long time ago about I must be an alien because people just don't make any sense to me?
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luvin honey
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« Reply #69 on: September 13, 2010, 12:28:30 PM »

It's not my job to explain to you why the Bible is sacred to me. You asked for a definition of what makes something sacred, and I'm telling you that I believe something is sacred if people believe it is sacred. Cattle are not sacred to me--they are food. To others, they are sacred. There may be nothing on earth "sacred" to you, and that's fine. Doesn't make it irrational or dumb for other people to hold things sacred.

I wouldn't risk my children to save my bible either, but that's cuz I can always buy another one. I would have a problem with people burning bibles just to make a point. Yes, there can always be more printed. And, no, I wouldn't get in an uproar or go into attack mode because people were burning copies of something valuable to me. But, I would have a sick feeling that someone was trying to make a point that way, and if they went after MY bible, I would care, definitely.
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The pedigree of honey
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bigbearomaha
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« Reply #70 on: September 13, 2010, 01:26:43 PM »

I will explain what sacred is to topixqui, like me.

Something is sacred that we see has been directly "touched" by the Creator.

That means to us, all life is sacred as the Creators touch is upon everything created.  However, things that are simply made by people are not sacred.  books, waffles, cars, houses, etc.. are not considered sacred.

Some relationships are considered sacred because we beleive the Creator has put his touch or paid special attention to them.  These would be things like marriage, as we are asking for the touch of the Creator and making a promise to him directly that we will uphold our vows and promises.

We have a similar ceremony in making people of our family.  this might be similar to a christening or baptism to christians, but essentially it is people making promises and vows to the Creator directly that we will take the person in question as one of our own blood.

where some people think their belief in something makes it sacred, we look at it as if something is sacred, it is regardless of whether people beleive it or not.

of course, there are those who will argue that it is the belief of that that makes it so,  I guess that is a matter of perspective.  It's like believing a rock is not a rock.  we can argue all day long that the rock is not a rock, but at the end of it all, as it sits there, it is still a rock, whether we think it is or not.  it is what it is.

That is the best explanation of "sacred" from a topixqui understanding.

Big Bear



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luvin honey
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« Reply #71 on: September 13, 2010, 01:49:52 PM »

Very interesting explanation--thanks! Here's the thing. You KNOW what things are sacred to you because they have been touched by your Creator. Of course, not everyone believes in a creator or your Creator, yet it is still sacred to you. Therefore, it is your belief in its sacredness that makes it sacred to you.

I believe the bible is God's word through man put onto paper. Yet I understand not everyone else believes that. That makes it sacred to me, meaningless trash to someone else. The Koran means nothing to me, but because I value my own religious texts I would not consider defiling someone else's religious text, meaningless as it is to me.

I wasn't saying that someone else believing in something's sacredness makes it sacred to ME. It makes it sacred to THEM. You say
Quote
where some people think their belief in something makes it sacred, we look at it as if something is sacred, it is regardless of whether people beleive it or not.
And I respect that. But it still doesn't make it sacred to me (necessarily) because it may not be something I believe has been touched by the creator.

Not trying to argue, just clarifying. Does it make any sense to you?
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The pedigree of honey
Does not concern the bee;
A clover, any time, to him
Is aristocracy.
---Emily Dickinson
bigbearomaha
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« Reply #72 on: September 13, 2010, 02:21:57 PM »

my only point in that comment was that for us, something that is sacred is regardless of whether people beleive in it or not.

If anyone would be interested, for me to explain much more than this about topixqui, would seriously be derailing this thread.  This could take place in another thread or in pm, etc..

Big Bear
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luvin honey
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« Reply #73 on: September 13, 2010, 02:26:46 PM »

my only point in that comment was that for us, something that is sacred is regardless of whether people beleive in it or not.
Oh, I see. I agree. Despite many people not holding my beliefs, they are still precious and sacred to me also.
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The pedigree of honey
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Bee Happy
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« Reply #74 on: September 13, 2010, 03:47:36 PM »

My guess  would be that when the ink is arranged in such a fashion as to "repeat the words of God as whipered to the prophet who set them down" then they become sacred by the way the ink is configured. (yep, just ink and paper) I suppose by extension that if you wrote the thing verbatim in pen, it would become imbued with sacredness. I'm not assigning any higher value to a few ounces of ink and a pound or two of paper, and I agree that it's ridiculous to take offense at the firey destruction of it. But there it is - apparently the penalty for burning one is supposed to be your personal death, but in a pinch several random members of your tribe will suit the demand. I'm out of the apoplexy over this astoundingly insane failure of logic - the "faith" and the adherence to it is what it is. The only way to reinstall logic is to overwrite the "faith" commands.
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« Reply #75 on: September 13, 2010, 05:38:18 PM »

One topic alluded to, but not directly addressed in this conversation is education.

The Catholic Church, in its heyday, as is Islam still, was taught be a few educated clerics to the uneducated masses.  The Mass's only source of information was their local cleric as they could not read for themselves.  In Christiandom, Martin Luther rebeled to this top down theocracy, as my governments were vassels of the church just as were the masses.  Once people became more educated (literate) on a individual basis, they found that what the church was teaching wasn't necessarily correct.  Thus the revolution and proliferation of Protestant (I protest) churches.

Islam followed the same path with clerics teaching their own ideas or interreptations of the holy word of the Koran.  The Mosaic laws of Chistianity, and eye for a eye, etc, was greatly expanded upon in the Koran and became the basic legal framework of the governments of Islamic nations just as the Mosaic laws became the basis of most of the christian worlds legal framework. 

The major difference is that as Christiandoms dictate of religon was being rent assunder, the Islamic clerics hold over the masses was becoming more deeply entrenched as education was claimed the right of the church, hence, a conserted effort was made, and is still being made, to keep the follower of Islam illiterate, education was(is) done orally. Today's Muslum has been indoctrinated to believe that the word of the Koran, as interrepted by his local cleric, is the word of God (Allah).  This indocrtination (read brain washing) has, over the centuries, resulted in a group of fanatics.

It could very well have happened in the opposite way, with Christiandom becoming the fanatics and Islam the home of literate scholars.
In the United States, most Muslums, were either those who chose to become literate, hence prosperous, or have become so after coming to this country.  Either way, their enlightenment through literacy has caused a moderating of their zeallousness.  In the Arab countries, where only the elite have become iterate, thus less zealous, the illiterate masses, still being dependant on the oral teachings of their clerics remain the fanatics.
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CountryBee
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« Reply #76 on: September 13, 2010, 05:54:00 PM »

A Bible is very sacred to me.  When someone says its author I genuflect.  The words of God have power.  That is me.  Country Smiley
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« Reply #77 on: September 13, 2010, 10:42:36 PM »

It just seem to me the last folks that tried this little stunt... well let just say it didn't work out so well.  that movement is now (hopefully) gone, but the books they burned still exist.
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« Reply #78 on: September 14, 2010, 06:21:17 AM »

The german one?
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« Reply #79 on: September 20, 2010, 11:07:26 AM »

Apparently those evil Koran burners were careless and some of the burning pages fluttered around causing a much bigger blaze.

 rolleyes

Oh..sorry...wrong group there.  Some people just skip the symbolic gestures.
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