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Author Topic: Book Burning  (Read 7491 times)
luvin honey
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« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2010, 08:59:34 PM »

my concern is that this will be like the Mohamed cartoons.  people will die because this guy wants to make a point.  will it be worth it if one of our kids, or husbands/wives, etc. are killed while traveling?  will it be worth it if more of our soldiers are killed.

in fact, i think this will threaten many of us.  i agree they are idiots to react the way they do, but if they prove they are idiots by killing one of my own, this pastor's right to free speech won't make my family member any less dead.
I'm so shocked to totally agree with this and all the above posts!! Where's a passing out icon?  evil Free speech is great, but some people can be really stupid about it.

Quote
>>>>In Afghanistan, hundreds of angry Afghans burned an American flag and chanted "Death to the Christians" to protest the planned Quran burning.<<<<

Why didn't we hear the same type of uproar about this??
Probably because we respect free speech. Plus, we're already at war there. What further could we do?
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AllenF
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« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2010, 09:06:04 PM »



Quote
>>>>In Afghanistan, hundreds of angry Afghans burned an American flag and chanted "Death to the Christians" to protest the planned Quran burning.<<<<

Why didn't we hear the same type of uproar about this??
Probably because we respect free speech. Plus, we're already at war there. What further could we do?
[/quote]

Bring the war over here to us.
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iddee
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« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2010, 10:01:49 PM »

Maybe just pull out totally and use the area for testing new missiles and bombs??

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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2010, 10:03:57 PM »

I realize the value of prudence in approaching a volatile situation - and how revolting it would be to consider putting others in jeopardy, but where does placating extortion end. I agree that burning the koran was a bad idea in the first place - but at worst it was rude in the extreme; the answer by too many for religious criticism is consistently murder.
I'm not at all saying that this event was a time to take a stand - but when is it? When does the USAs sovereign freedom begin to matter? Is life always too precious over freedom? Will it matrter when violent extremists demand editing rights on our news outlets? - When they demand first rights on our entertainment media? When they demand sharia law inside the US and it's too late to stop them?
I absolutely see this as a pattern - I wish I could remember the site I saw - which basically illustrates the systematic dismantling of freedoms in other countries. Malaysia is constitutionally a religiously free country - but extremists are at the wheel now - the population grew incrementally along with the violence - the law is still in place but you practice Christianity or unauthorised Islam at your own risk. Other countries are farther ahead than us on the same schedule - Holland and the UK for example. Protests over simple matters growing ever more violent, threats to gain seats of power and control.
Canada has a higher Muslim population than we do - and I suspect they will be having trouble next.
So, where is the line where free people refuse to bow to threats and abuse?
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kathyp
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« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2010, 10:21:23 PM »

if the government were to step in to stop the book burning, i would draw the line there.  this is less about rights than about wisdom.  no one is debating the pastors right to burn the Koran.  thing is, it's an action purely designed to provoke.  it does not further the cause of freedom, nor does it do any damage to radical Islam. 

i can go out back and poke a stick at a rattlesnake, but why would i do it?  i already know it will just get angry off, and i might get hurt. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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luvin honey
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« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2010, 10:39:58 PM »

if the government were to step in to stop the book burning, i would draw the line there.  this is less about rights than about wisdom.  no one is debating the pastors right to burn the Koran.  thing is, it's an action purely designed to provoke.  it does not further the cause of freedom, nor does it do any damage to radical Islam. 

i can go out back and poke a stick at a rattlesnake, but why would i do it?  i already know it will just get pee'd off, and i might get hurt. 
Exactly. I think the president (seriously NOT trying to start something here) handled it absolutely perfectly. He called it a "stunt" and thereby minimized the guy planning to do it, pointed out the possible dangers to men and women in uniform, while NOT saying it would not be allowed, only talking about tolerance for differences of opinion and religion in America.
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Bee Happy
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« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2010, 11:09:31 PM »

No, No I completely concede  that it was unwise to burn the korans.
The problem is and the question was: Every time Radical Islam rears its fugly head - the price is always a huge bargain, just a tiny piece of your freedom to do as you wish with your rights in your own country in exchange for the lives of others. The question isn't about this time - the question is never about this time because it's a bargain every time:  surrender a tiny bit of freedom + never think of doing it again = lots of random lives saved.
When does that bargain become too much? (yes - I DO believe that a freedom unused is a useless freedom.)
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luvin honey
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« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2010, 09:25:20 AM »

No, No I completely concede  that it was unwise to burn the korans.
The problem is and the question was: Every time Radical Islam rears its fugly head - the price is always a huge bargain, just a tiny piece of your freedom to do as you wish with your rights in your own country in exchange for the lives of others. The question isn't about this time - the question is never about this time because it's a bargain every time:  surrender a tiny bit of freedom + never think of doing it again = lots of random lives saved.
When does that bargain become too much? (yes - I DO believe that a freedom unused is a useless freedom.)
Also excellent points.

I would say, though, is "freedom" all about destroying something of value to another, or is it to live in a more positive way? I get it that freedom of speech lets us do the good and the ugly, but how long can a nation keep its freedom if it is used in ways to degrade others? How would we feel about others destroying things of importance to us? When other nations live in a way we find absolutely in contrast with our freedoms, we sometimes begin wars over that. Why would we consider it "freedom" to burn another religion's holy books?
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The pedigree of honey
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kathyp
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« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2010, 10:12:29 AM »

now you are getting into relativism smiley

that's along the same lines as "one mans terrorist is another man's freedom fighter".

fortunately it's not about how anyone feels.  it's about what the law allows or does not allow.  if you go by feeling on things, someone will always feel that what you are doing or saying is wrong/hurtful.

in a lot of other countries like Canada and England, free speech as we know it, does not exist.  they have tried to spare the feelings of  others, but by doing this, they have taken away the ability of all to freely express themselves.  I'd rather have hurt feelings....and even idiots rioting....and be able to speak my mind without fear of the law.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
luvin honey
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« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2010, 11:25:23 AM »

Very true. I have always said free speech, no matter what. You're right, once you start negotiating, where does it end? However, some people are truly stupid and pointless and harmful with their use of free speech. But, I guess that right still needs to be protected. It is ALSO free speech for other people to ask them to stop being so stupid and to consider the vulnerability of others affected by their proposed actions.
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The pedigree of honey
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A clover, any time, to him
Is aristocracy.
---Emily Dickinson
bigbearomaha
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« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2010, 11:41:56 AM »

Quote
It is ALSO free speech for other people to ask them to stop being so stupid and to consider the vulnerability of others affected by their proposed actions.

Bingo.  the things that people forget when they are expressing their freedom of speech is that 1) they are not the only ones who can express themselves 2) that the freedom is only to protect you from the gov't, not the consequences of getting a punch in the mouth.

these rights, these freedoms also carry with them responsibility.  Something else that seems to be forgotten a lot.  It's not just being able to do things we are free to do, but to make sure those freedoms are there for all the other citizens as well.   I should not be trying to use one of my rights to deprive someone else of that or another right.

Big Bear
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Scadsobees
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« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2010, 12:16:36 PM »

Why would we consider it "freedom" to burn another religion's holy books?

It always has been.  The Bible has been cursed, burned, and defaced for many years.  By Americans.  By Gazans.  By Muslims.

In fact a whole pile of Bibles (and american flags) has been burned in the Muslim world in the past week in response to the THREAT of burning a koran.  Oh..and the fact that thousands of random Americans lives are at stake over that THREAT from one backwoods Chester Arthur lookalike preacher.

I think THAT is where the debate needs to be.  Hopefully people are paying attention to fact that people are going to try to shoot us with an shotgun for threatening them with a spitball.
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Rick
bigbearomaha
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« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2010, 12:35:13 PM »

Quote
In fact a whole pile of Bibles (and american flags) has been burned in the Muslim world in the past week in response to the THREAT of burning a koran.

Well yeah, that's what two faced hypocrites do when they are trying to grab power by force and intimidation.

We're not supposed to pay attention to what they do, only to heed what they say.  which is demanding respect for a bunch of folks who lack that same respect for anyone else.

 I see the extremist muslims the same way  I see extremist Christians, you know the ones who think it's ok to terrorize and kill people who don't fit in to their 'good book's' way of  doing things, like abortion doctors, people who dance. I am reminded of the story of the teenage girl who was shot by her father, the devout christian who upon finding out his daughter 'disgraced him' by going to a dance decided she had to be punished.

This is similar to stories we hear of muslims who move to the US to enjoy 'freedom' but then kill their daughters for not adhering to  traditional religious expectations.

The point is, extremism and religion is never a good thing and societies built on those things are essentially powder kegs waiting for an excuse to light a match.
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Bee Happy
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« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2010, 12:43:34 PM »

Oddly - the "tiny, insignificant, number"  of fringy flako schizo extremist wackos - grows exponentially over the publication of a rude comic or the prospect of torching some paper with some stuff printed on it. I don't see the tiny number of christian extremists changing significantly as result of any single event.
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luvin honey
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« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2010, 12:56:24 PM »

I think THAT is where the debate needs to be.  Hopefully people are paying attention to fact that people are going to try to shoot us with an shotgun for threatening them with a spitball.
That's where my mom would ask you if you WANT to be just like the other guy, or if you're trying to be better. Cheesy
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The pedigree of honey
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kathyp
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« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2010, 12:58:43 PM »

Quote
these rights, these freedoms also carry with them responsibility

we have a couple of generations who have been taught that they have "rights", but the responsibility part somehow got lost in the teaching.  you have the right to vote, but apparently you don't have the responsibility to be informed before you do.  you have the right to peaceful assembly, but the responsibility not to incite or participate in a riot.


Quote
I see extremist Christians, you know the ones who think it's ok to terrorize and kill people who don't fit in to their 'good book's' way of  doing things, like abortion doctors, people who dance.


there are approximately as many Christians in the world as there are Muslims.  the violence committed by Christians is statistically 0.  it is also a aberration in the Christian community.  this seems not to be the case in the Muslim community.  even if you take the low number of 3% of Muslims are radicals....and that is a very low number as i have heard it put as high as 15%, that's a lot of people dedicated to violence and the support of violence.  it includes the majority of populations of some countries.

so i will buy the assertion that the majority of Muslims are peaceful, but several million that are not is something to be aware of and concerned about.  if you think of that in military terms, that's an army greater than that of china, and they are out to change the world by force.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
kathyp
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« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2010, 01:00:26 PM »

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That's where my mom would ask you if you WANT to be just like the other guy, or if you're trying to be better.


awwww, now see, our moms are very different.  mine would have asked me if i won....   evil
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
bigbearomaha
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« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2010, 02:40:17 PM »

Statistics can say just about anything you want them to say.  my point was extremism is more the problem than mulims. 

The interesting thing about islam is how apparently easy it is to read extremist concepts.  How those in the 'membership' of islam can be so easily swayed from moderate to extreme behavior as compared to others.

You also want to take into consideration how many countries build christianity into the social structure and government a heavily as islam has been.  it's a method of indoctrination no other religion 'enjoys'.

take islam out of the government and schools,  I don't honestly know how large that population would be then.

Big Bear
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kathyp
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« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2010, 02:59:53 PM »

Quote
Statistics can say just about anything you want them to say.  my point was extremism is more the problem than Muslims.  


forget statistics and just do the math.

you can't take Islam out of government.  it is not only a religion, but a system of laws.  remember that the first Muslim terrorist attacks were directed at Arab and Persian countries that were not fully embracing sharia law.  the entire "Palestinian" issue started with fundamentalists fighting moderate Muslim governments.  it had nothing to do with Israel, the US, or wanting a homeland....except to the extent that they wanted a fundamentalist Muslim state that would encompass the region known as Palestine.

when people call the Muslim religion a religion of peace, they forget that it can be a legal system of oppression.  that is the reason that there is such a division in the Muslim world.  the legal part of Islam does not allow for freedom or tolerance.  

i personally don't care what kind of government or religion people embrace as long as they do not insist that we embrace it also, and as long as they are no threat to others who choose not to be fundamentalist.  
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
bigbearomaha
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« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2010, 03:59:20 PM »

you and I are talking about the same thing here.

without the extremist legal aspects, such as exercised by those living in the U.S. you find more peaceful relationships and people practicing.  When the extremist aspects, those being the 'dictatorial' laws which follow the more hard core element, there is inevitable trouble.

I did not suggest that at this point we could remove islam from those countries governments, I was suggesting a separation for the purpose of discussion.

extremism happens, at varying levels in every religious system. statistics and percentages aside, the problems arise when the 'extremists' find themselves with power to force themselves on others against their will.

At one point in time in the worlds history, we did see such a huge population of Christianity in the form of Catholicism involved in the same thing, a little something history refers to as the Inquisition.

they were by no means exemplary of 'typical' catholics or christians, but extremists who found themselves in a position of power.

Which takes me back to one of my original points that all of this is merely a grand cover not necessarily for religion, but for power.

Big Bear



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