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Author Topic: Book Burning  (Read 7360 times)
kathyp
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« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2010, 06:12:36 PM »

the catholic church suffered from the same problem as Islam, but for a different reason.  the Catholic church perverted the teachings of new testament.  one of the reasons they went after Martin Luther is because they knew that if the general population actually read the new testament the church would lose a lot of it's power. if people found out that you could have a relationship with God absent the church, the church figured they'd be in trouble.  you can't follow the teachings of Christ and have things like the inquisition, confession, payment for salvation, saint worship, relic worship, etc.  there was not much in the operation of the catholic church that was remotely Christian.  to the extent that they have kept some of those old teachings they still are in direct opposition to biblical teachings.

on the other hand, if Muslims follow literally the teachings of the Koran and their other holy writings, they have permission for their radical behavior.  this has been the pattern of Islam from it's inception.  those Muslims who are not engaged in radical behavior have made a choice not to take some of the teachings of Islam literally.  as the catholic church has set up to pope to be the voice for God on earth, so have the Muslims set up their leaders to be the interpreters of Allah's will on earth.  

when questions about behavior are raised, as they were after 9/11, it's the leadership that issues a ruling.  after 9/11 some Muslims were upset that civilians had been the target of attack and without warning. also that Muslims had been killed.  a fatwa was issued by leaders who said that the attack was ok because of the greater goal.  the fatwa went on to say that WMD are acceptable also even though the majority of the deaths would be to civilians.  another more recent fatwa issued in Iran has give permission for nucs to be used.

http://carnegieendowment.org/static/npp/fatwa.pdf
here is the WMD fatwa, although to be fair, the Saudi govt did force him to withdraw it later.  however, if you read it, you see how he used their holy teachings to justify the actions.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2010, 07:20:37 PM »

Quote
It is ALSO free speech for other people to ask them to stop being so stupid and to consider the vulnerability of others affected by their proposed actions.

Bingo.  the things that people forget when they are expressing their freedom of speech is that 1) they are not the only ones who can express themselves 2) that the freedom is only to protect you from the gov't, not the consequences of getting a punch in the mouth.

these rights, these freedoms also carry with them responsibility.  Something else that seems to be forgotten a lot.  It's not just being able to do things we are free to do, but to make sure those freedoms are there for all the other citizens as well.   I should not be trying to use one of my rights to deprive someone else of that or another right.

Big Bear
That is exactly it!
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slacker361
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« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2010, 07:55:24 PM »

People please.   I mean c'mon.  only a small, small percentage of the U.S. population lives in a desert situation and having their brains baked like old clay pots.

That's nothing compared to a whole country of sun baked, delirium-is-the-everyday situation those poor souls suffer.

One of the the first symptoms of heat stroke is hallucinations and hyper-emotional stress reactions.

For us, it's a bad thing to avoid, for them, it's everyday life.

of course, it's not like our country is without it's fair share of brain injury either.  a great  many Americans seem to be brain dead in direct relationship in regards to proximity to politicians.

my one piece of advice to really help peaceful relationships with desert folks, plant trees, not poppies.  it's amazing what a little shade will accomplish.

Big Bear

EDIT:  For the humor deprived, this is a joke playing off the effects of too much sun on human beings.   Please     skip this post if you were born without a personality. thank you.



 lau lau I like your disclaimer...
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CountryBee
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« Reply #43 on: September 10, 2010, 09:27:17 PM »

 lau
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Scadsobees
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« Reply #44 on: September 10, 2010, 10:45:07 PM »

I think THAT is where the debate needs to be.  Hopefully people are paying attention to fact that people are going to try to shoot us with an shotgun for threatening them with a spitball.
That's where my mom would ask you if you WANT to be just like the other guy, or if you're trying to be better. Cheesy

And there is our debate.  We're sticking up for one guy's right.  Even if we think it stupidity.  I think that is better than going out in the streets and rioting and burning their books and threatening to kill random of them.

As stupid as I think what Mr. Jones is doing is theologically irrelevent and doesn't belong in a church, well, he has as much right to do that as the heavy metal satanist does to destroy bibles in a concert.

I think that that was part of his points with this demonstration.  And it worked.  The whole world condemning his right of speech, as stupid as that speech may be.  Violence being promised and shown.

Rather than the muslim world(at least parts of it) trying to destroy those and many other rights.  These same people that would have you in a burkha.  If this is the reaction to a backwoods preacher, then we have every right to fear these types of people.  We'll placate and placate and then turn around and be like Europe and facing some very serious issues that won't be resolved easily. 
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Rick
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« Reply #45 on: September 10, 2010, 11:05:09 PM »

I think THAT is where the debate needs to be.  Hopefully people are paying attention to fact that people are going to try to shoot us with an shotgun for threatening them with a spitball.
That's where my mom would ask you if you WANT to be just like the other guy, or if you're trying to be better. Cheesy


And there is our debate.  We're sticking up for one guy's right.  Even if we think it stupidity.  I think that is better than going out in the streets and rioting and burning their books and threatening to kill random of them.

As stupid as I think what Mr. Jones is doing is theologically irrelevent and doesn't belong in a church, well, he has as much right to do that as the heavy metal satanist does to destroy bibles in a concert.

I think that that was part of his points with this demonstration.  And it worked.  The whole world condemning his right of speech, as stupid as that speech may be.  Violence being promised and shown.

Rather than the muslim world(at least parts of it) trying to destroy those and many other rights.  These same people that would have you in a burkha.  If this is the reaction to a backwoods preacher, then we have every right to fear these types of people.  We'll placate and placate and then turn around and be like Europe and facing some very serious issues that won't be resolved easily. 

People have already been killed over this event - even though it was called off.
The problem is I know how to WIN - and it would only cost a few lives. The pentagon asks "how do you fight an IDEA?" I'm not the first or only person to find the answer, although I did arrive at the answer on my own, To defeat an IDEA you have to prove in no uncertain terms that the IDEA has no power, destroy faith in it to crush and demoralize the idea itself - not their bodies - they've (the radical fanatics) proven that their bodies are meaningless to them. I saw something saying that Allah PROMISED that the Kabbah (the black cube in the center of mecca) would remain protected and unscathed for ALL ETERNITY. - blow it up, be certain the cornerstone is destroyed, make a liar out of a god who promises paradise for murder. It won't happen - too many people are afraid it will backfire - I disagree.
http://cassandra2004.blogspot.com/2005/07/moderate-muslims-and-mecca.html
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« Reply #46 on: September 10, 2010, 11:21:46 PM »

Maybe just pull out totally and use the area for testing new missiles and bombs??



Question?Huh?  Can one drill for oil  through dirty glass ?Jerry
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"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do"  Benjamin Franklin
Jerrymac
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« Reply #47 on: September 11, 2010, 12:20:25 AM »

Maybe just pull out totally and use the area for testing new missiles and bombs??




Question?Huh?  Can one drill for oil  through dirty glass ?Jerry


There is this

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rainbow sunflower  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.   rainbow sunflower

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« Reply #48 on: September 11, 2010, 08:20:59 AM »

The real question is:  If your Priest or pastor was doing a book burning would you be there?.........I definitely would not!  A book is a book, the pastor should do his business in a field in private, without all this publicity, then he wouldn't get anyone mad.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #49 on: September 11, 2010, 09:38:25 AM »

Well you know I might want to take a few wieners and marshmallows  happy campers
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« Reply #50 on: September 11, 2010, 11:08:50 PM »

Well you know I might want to take a few wieners and marshmallows  happy campers

I think there will already be at least one weiner there already... the idiot trying to light a book afire.  OH and for the marshmellow... think they are between his ears
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« Reply #51 on: September 12, 2010, 07:46:46 AM »

KathyP- Please discuss more on Roman Catholic history and the New Testament.
Bee Happy- The Kaaba has been destroyed, and moved, stolen, broken up, etc. over the last 2000 years.  Saudi Arabia cannot keep it safe and I do not remember Muhammad saying about protecting it.  When?
Thank you both, Country Smiley
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kathyp
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« Reply #52 on: September 12, 2010, 11:57:45 AM »

you'll make me tick off all the catholics on here  grin

in broad terms, the new testament teaches that your salvation is dependent on your personal relationship with Christ.  The  Catholic church, and especially in the old days, teaches that your salvation is dependent on Christ...through the catholic church.

hate to date myself, but when i was younger, mass was still held in Latin and reading the bible was still discouraged.  some of that has changed.  still, they hang on to things like confession, intercession, something very close to idol worship, and adherence to the word of the pope.  these things and some others are in direct opposition to the teachings of the NT.

the catholic church is a very good example of why the word of man is a poor substitute for a foundational doctrine.  the word of man changes with the man/men.  the foundational doctrine does not change.  if you base your government or belief system on whatever is said by man, no matter how wise and well intentioned he may be, you don't have much that you can count on.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #53 on: September 12, 2010, 12:13:57 PM »

If you watched "The Tudors" you would have seen what happened back in the day when people were trying to break away from the teachings of the catholic church. Wasn't very pleasant.
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kathyp
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« Reply #54 on: September 12, 2010, 12:56:51 PM »

totalitarian governments always go after the religions that require individual responsibility.  Protestants, Buddhists, and to some extent, Hindus.  others are co-opted because they are top down religions. roman catholics, eastern orthodox, etc.  those churches already control their populations, so if they can be incorporated into the government it is that much more control and the people have the illusion of having their religion. 

china is an exception.  they tried to kill all religion including ancestor worship, but were not so successful.  the French revolution tried to kill god, but that was a disaster so they tried to create a new god and that didn't work to well either.

one of the reasons Protestant Christianity and democracy fit together so well is that both require individual choice and responsibility.  if you read the founding documents you see that our founders were very much aware of this.  they also understood that if they were going to have a  light government the  people needed to be responsible for their own moral choices.  absent a moral people, the government must enforce (good) behaviors.
they did not expect that everyone would be a Christian, but that success depended on the population adhering to genearal Christian principles.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #55 on: September 12, 2010, 04:01:37 PM »

KathyP- Please discuss more on Roman Catholic history and the New Testament.
Bee Happy- The Kaaba has been destroyed, and moved, stolen, broken up, etc. over the last 2000 years.  Saudi Arabia cannot keep it safe and I do not remember Muhammad saying about protecting it.  When?
Thank you both, Country Smiley

There's a specific cornerstone that is the source of the claim - I beleive they claim the kabba will be protected by extension - their history may not include the destructions you mention (which I have no data on). Destroy the cornerstone, I couldn't tell you how many years it would be before they began into the "never happened" mode, but it would destroy faith or cause doubt sufficient to knock the IDEA off balance. I'm not a bit against destroying faith when the radicals practice a bloodthirsty intolerance and the moderates believe they would be utterly wrong to intervene.
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« Reply #56 on: September 12, 2010, 05:20:46 PM »

Thank you both!  KathyP, very interesting and educational, I was Roman Catholic, left with my large family after years.  Bee Happy, that would be cool to stop them all right now if we could.  I would like to stop them all also, more that anyone!  So much death from them.  If we could only end it now....Thanks to both of you again, Country Smiley
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« Reply #57 on: September 12, 2010, 06:20:12 PM »

absolutely - even our strategists are befuddled about how to deal with radicals with not only no fear of death, but a cult-like desire to become dead and take as many unbelievers as possible with them - destroying their faith is the only possible way. (better still if someone who hates us did it for us - just in case).
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« Reply #58 on: September 12, 2010, 08:08:39 PM »

 evil
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« Reply #59 on: September 12, 2010, 08:15:29 PM »

Please yourself whether you laugh or cry but we've got one also.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/queensland-lawyer-alex-stewart-smokes-pages-from-the-koran-and-bible/story-e6frf7l6-1225920273863
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