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Author Topic: Holy Crap!!! We know nothing  (Read 6103 times)
bigbearomaha
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« Reply #60 on: September 13, 2010, 02:32:25 PM »

but you already said it.

you expect the government to build roads.  not just to make sure roads get built.  You expect gov't to run airports, not make sure airports get run.

you expect the gov't to provide police protection, not just make sure protection is available.

Now, if gov't can do those things as efficiently as a private company might or better, then I am all for it.

If they can't, then I will prefer they lay down the parameters spelling out what private companies must do to get the contract to  do the work in an efficient and legal manner.  Then let those private companies do the work and further provide jobs and open, fair competition so that the best contractor is doing the job for the cost. there is very little that the gov't does that private citizens and businesses can't or shouldn't be doing instead.

Big Bear
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luvin honey
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« Reply #61 on: September 13, 2010, 02:46:56 PM »

but you already said it.

you expect the government to build roads.  not just to make sure roads get built.  You expect gov't to run airports, not make sure airports get run.

you expect the gov't to provide police protection, not just make sure protection is available.
I guess I wasn't clear enough. I don't expect gov't paid employees to do it, I expect the gov't to oversee it and make sure it is gets done. My parents, who own their own construction business, have been given gov't jobs this year through the latest programs to do work for the gov't but are not employees of the gov't, obviously.
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The pedigree of honey
Does not concern the bee;
A clover, any time, to him
Is aristocracy.
---Emily Dickinson
kathyp
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« Reply #62 on: September 13, 2010, 02:49:10 PM »

i think schools are in there too.  i'd be pleased to have the government running a public school system.  nothing is more important that kids getting a good K-12 education, but the public schools system is a failure.
i'd be all for a voucher system.  let parents decide what school and what kind of school they wanted their kids to attend.  no government regulation.  the competition would create more and better schools.  all students would benefit.  if kids and parents were not willing to make sure kids were attending, fine.  no graduation? no welfare, food stamps, etc.

i think it's also unfortunate that we have become convinced that a college education is required for success.  that's a fault of business as well as state.  one example:  my brother is a software wiz.  he had not gotten his degree.  he found that his job opportunities were limited.  as soon as he got his degree, he was head hunted by Google.  were his skill better because he got the degree?  no.  it was just a requirement........
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
kathyp
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« Reply #63 on: September 13, 2010, 02:53:10 PM »

Quote
My parents, who own their own construction business, have been given gov't jobs this year through the latest programs to do work for the gov't but are not employees of the gov't, obviously.


but they really are, aren't they?  the government is paying those contracts with tax dollars.  i bet your folks had to meet certain government requirements to qualify for those contracts?  now don't get me wrong.  i'd rather see jobs go to private contractors than government employees, but there is a small degree of separation only.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
luvin honey
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« Reply #64 on: September 13, 2010, 02:53:38 PM »

Quote
I expect them to regulate when necessary so that my life is livable--so that I can afford to live, can afford basic health insurance, can afford to save for retirement, have decent roads to drive on.


you were pretty good right up to here.  when the government begins to take on the job of making life "livable", we are in trouble.  roads?  fair enough.  that's a state thing except for the feds having built and taking on the responsibility for the interstate highway system.  everything else should be up to you and your state if that's what you want the state to do. 
I mean that some industries need regulation. Left to themselves, they will destroy my environment, gobble up my retirement income, and otherwise do things that benefit them but not the nation as a whole. I cannot regulate them, and some of them I cannot boycott. I expect the gov't to be paying attention and regulating when necessary.

I agree with you about the college education part. I got one, and I value it, but I learned nothing there academically that I couldn't have picked up in life.
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The pedigree of honey
Does not concern the bee;
A clover, any time, to him
Is aristocracy.
---Emily Dickinson
luvin honey
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« Reply #65 on: September 13, 2010, 02:54:43 PM »

Quote
My parents, who own their own construction business, have been given gov't jobs this year through the latest programs to do work for the gov't but are not employees of the gov't, obviously.


but they really are, aren't they?  the government is paying those contracts with tax dollars.  i bet your folks had to meet certain government requirements to qualify for those contracts?  now don't get me wrong.  i'd rather see jobs go to private contractors than government employees, but there is a small degree of separation only.
They absolutely had to jump through hoops. They, convervatives, considered this red tape and ridiculous gov't bureaucracy. I pointed out that without it they would have been complaining about wasted tax dollars with no gov't oversight.
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The pedigree of honey
Does not concern the bee;
A clover, any time, to him
Is aristocracy.
---Emily Dickinson
kathyp
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« Reply #66 on: September 13, 2010, 03:00:34 PM »

wasted tax dollars are almost all tax dollars spent  smiley

are they doing "stimulus" work?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Brian D. Bray
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I really look like this, just ask Cindi.


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« Reply #67 on: September 13, 2010, 04:44:44 PM »

Federal government was meant to be a limited government with jurisdiction over specific areas of common concern, those are spilled out in the constitution.  Individual states have jurisdiction over everything within their borders that the citizens of the state decide they want the state to have.  Unfortunately both the federal and state governments have assumed more power than was ever intended, a good portion of it as a result of being dictated back to the states from the federal government in overreaching entitlements to the point you could say the federal government purchased the consent of the states.

That's one of the reasons I like the Initiative system, where the people can, through petition, affirm actions they want the state to take, or reject actions the state has assumed. 

Government, either federal or state, as envisioned by our founding fathers, was to be minimalist in their undertaking.  To this day most of the welfare and general assistance is given by individuals or through such groups of individuals as churches, the red cross, or other charities, all continue to provide more than the governments do, with less "overhead" and bureaucratic entanglements.

In the State of Washington, our constitution dictates that the state government is responsible for providing full support of basic education.  Basic education is traditionally considered to be learning structures, along with reading, 'riting, and 'rithmetic which includes history (reading), science ('rithmetic-- i.e. physics), and literary arts (reading & writing). Extras, such as: music, sports, and non-marticulated subjects, were to be financed by the local citizens.  Unfortunately the state has diverted a large part of the funds originally targeted for school funding into the general fund where it is used for entitlement programs instead of education.  Some examples, It used to be that all logging stumpage fees were dedicated to education, The reason the citizens of Washington state approved gambling was that its income was to be dedicated to education (that lasted exactly 2 years, the constitutionally mandated restriction of legislative amending initiatives), vanity license plates started out that way.

The point is that government will corrupt the intent of the people unless it is governed by a tight rein, we must be ever watchful and quit saying, "but what will it hurt?"   Over time it hurts us all in corrupted or overreaching government, unconstitutional entitlements, excessive taxation, and misdirected funds, to name just a few.
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Life is a school.  What have you learned?   Brian      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!
CountryBee
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« Reply #68 on: September 13, 2010, 05:39:47 PM »

Well said Brian.  I like how you put it also KathyP and BigBear.  Good luck with the children Luvin Honey, you are doing a good thing for them.
Back to the conservative subject, I am conservative because of the basic moral values that our founding fathers came here with and put in our constitution.  I do not want them changed or limited like extreme liberal views on the subjects.  Like I posted before, it shows basic 10 ways if you are conservative or liberal.  Not slippery tongue all the same free love government is good stuff.  The majority of government is headed for bad area, it use to be smaller than american people.  Now it is bigger, it is them and us.  Not them working for us.  We are the cash cow, they take their cut from my paychecks before I even see them!  Think about that for a minute.....they were created by us to help us.  Now they are a separate entity that is larger than us that says "I will keep you safer if I pass this new law" and it gets passed.  Less freedom.  End of story.  Why not enforce current laws from 50 years ago?
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tecumseh
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« Reply #69 on: September 13, 2010, 10:33:09 PM »

snip..
so the fact that liberals and conservatives are very different in their ideology has nothing to do with it?  it's all a smoke screen for the game of politics? 

if you were to truly believe that, i'd have to say that you either have no knowledge of two very different positions, and probably aren't to up on your history either.

tecumseh:
I see you didn't attempt a real concrete definition of either.  nor address a historical interpretation of the two terms. nor address how pure ideology (tag them what you will) may or may not work in the real world. 

however your second sentence captures my thinking quite nicely... which is to say that yes I think there are any number of 'issues' pushed for the $ generated and the smoke screen created.  distraction is always an essential part in any shell game and the $ generated is no small matter either.     

you can ASSUME what you wish... no law against that.  There is also an excellent possibility that you could be incorrect..

as you are here (snip)..

in fact, every time the government takes less, the revenue to the government goes up.  people spend, invest, and become more successful because they are making decisions about their own financing.

tecumseh:
I am afraid you are confusing spin with fact.  I suspect?? the equation for such things is a bit more complex than you seem to imagine.  A short read of 'Kevin Phillips (Wealth and Democracy)' would inform you that the above sound bite is in fact incorrect.

luvin writes:
I think the vast majority of humanity has way more in common than not.

tecumseh:
we are born, we live, we die.  somewhere in the middle we suffer... just like the rocks... or so the budda suggested.

   

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I am 'the panther that passes in the night'... tecumseh.
CountryBee
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« Reply #70 on: September 14, 2010, 06:24:43 AM »

Not all rocks suffer, some get to lay on a beach all their lives and become beautiful stones. grin
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