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Author Topic: Holy Crap!!! We know nothing  (Read 5666 times)
CountryBee
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« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2010, 07:24:10 PM »

Did anyone read this?  Maybe he forgot to check his references?

http://www.bermanpost.com/2010/09/washington-post-picks-up-on-oval-office.html
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slacker361
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« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2010, 07:45:37 PM »

it just seems to me like a lot of hating going on , and I am trying to figure out why, is it just to stir the pot? or what? you say "Everything should be done in moderation, not extremety" and yet the sentence before you say "I am very conservative".  This is why I ask, why other than different party lines, is there so much hate.

is it just the party lines, is it a race issue, or is it just a difference in the fundamental beliefs. I think the more we understand about each party (each other)  , the more the fundamentals are the same, and the extremes are what divides us.

I live in the gray area , somewhere  in the middle between the two extremes.

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kathyp
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« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2010, 07:52:11 PM »

where do you see a lot of hate?  only hate i have run into lately is when i express the fact that i am pretty conservative.  the pejorative "tea bagger" comes immediately to mind as having been routinely thrown at me.  i have also been called a racist, intolerant, and stupid.  where's the love sad
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
CountryBee
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« Reply #43 on: September 10, 2010, 09:22:53 PM »

http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservative
I would just disagree with the death penalty, I respect all life.  But the rest pretty much is all of it in the first few paragraphs.
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luvin honey
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« Reply #44 on: September 10, 2010, 10:16:38 PM »

I wonder if obama could change his own oil?  Did he read a book on it?  Will Rogers said "There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves."  Kinda true, kinda funny, wonder which one obama is.
Oh, boy. This kind of reasoning gets trotted out to liberals so often that it's looking a bit worn and ragged. Okay, I suppose now I am supposed to prove how street smart I am, how physically competent I am and how much common sense I have in order to prove that a person can have liberal views AND be a functioning, intelligent member of society. Sorry, I'm too tired for that tonight. Too tired after spending the day at my regular job, coming home to my farming job and doing it all again tomorrow.

Plus, it's a fairly ironic argument to be made on a forum where EVERYone is learning about beekeeping by reading, then by doing.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #45 on: September 11, 2010, 12:13:45 AM »

Plus, it's a fairly ironic argument to be made on a forum where EVERYone is learning about beekeeping by reading, then by doing.

Not everyone rolleyes
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bigbearomaha
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« Reply #46 on: September 11, 2010, 06:38:47 AM »

well, in a way, ongoing learning happens a lot like that, read then do.

 I can only speak for myself when  I say  I got into it headfirst by doing, then reading.


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CountryBee
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« Reply #47 on: September 11, 2010, 08:16:50 AM »

I learned from my father, he was my mentor. grin  But I do love this forum, a lot of great people with a lot of great ideas! Smiley
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CountryBee
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« Reply #48 on: September 12, 2010, 07:53:58 AM »

Oh, I didn't mean to get you mad Luvin Honey, Sorry.  I was just trying to show my point of view.  PS- do you change your own oil on your farm?
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tecumseh
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« Reply #49 on: September 13, 2010, 08:28:38 AM »

luvin honey writes:
Oh, boy. This kind of reasoning gets trotted out to liberals so often that it's looking a bit worn and ragged.

tecumseh:
yep... so often that it is now trite and meaningless.

some folks seem to have forgotten the US is US of A....  every issue is reduced to an us than them mentality.  invariable the same us and them crowd seems to think compromise is weak and anything besides in your face conflict is a waste of time. 

I pretty much believe that the whole conservative vs liberal thingee is little more than name calling and most folks that routinely use such terms would have some difficulty in defining either term.
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luvin honey
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« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2010, 10:48:58 AM »

I pretty much believe that the whole conservative vs liberal thingee is little more than name calling and most folks that routinely use such terms would have some difficulty in defining either term.
Totally agree. I think the vast majority of humanity has way more in common than not.
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The pedigree of honey
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kathyp
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« Reply #51 on: September 13, 2010, 11:47:24 AM »

so the fact that liberals and conservatives are very different in their ideology has nothing to do with it?  it's all a smoke screen for the game of politics? 

if you were to truly believe that, i'd have to say that you either have no knowledge of two very different positions, and probably aren't to up on your history either.

there is a great deal of name calling, but it is the name calling that covers the ideology.  demonize and marginalize the opponent, and you have distracted from the message.

the use of the term "tea bagger" would be an excellent example.....also word "racist".
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #52 on: September 13, 2010, 12:23:58 PM »

Of course there are major ideological differences, but I think humanity has more in common than not. We want freedom to do what we enjoy. We want security. We want enough food, clothing and shelter. We want to be loved and respected. We want our children to be safe. We want freedom for religion or freedom from religion.

I think we just disagree on how to get there and exactly WHERE each of those things exist. If what I enjoy goes directly again what you enjoy, then the fight begins. But, the core is that we are both trying to do what we enjoy. Maybe I'm oversimplifying.
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The pedigree of honey
Does not concern the bee;
A clover, any time, to him
Is aristocracy.
---Emily Dickinson
kathyp
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« Reply #53 on: September 13, 2010, 12:29:37 PM »

Quote
I think we just disagree on how to get there and exactly WHERE each of those things exist.

that's pretty much it.  liberals think those things can be provided or secured through the government.  conservatives think those things are secured through the individual effort.  the only thing the government needs to do is get out of the way.  conservatives don't see failure or poverty as a diseases.  i personally, having both failed and lived in poverty, consider both to be motivators toward success.  if others don't see it that way, that's their problem, not mine

notice i did not say republicans and democrats.  there are liberal republicans and conservative democrats. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
luvin honey
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« Reply #54 on: September 13, 2010, 12:37:12 PM »

I still think that is oversimpliying it. Personally, I would agree with everything you say and apply those values to my life. I don't depend on the gov't to get me by, but I do depend on it for fire protection, roads, Internet access, schools. I depend on me for making a living (and my husband Smiley) But, I still want other people who don't have all my benefits to have a net under them.

Even this is debatable under my guidlines in my previous post:
Quote
liberals think those things can be provided or secured through the government.  conservatives think those things are secured through the individual effort.
I want the gov't to provide me good schooling, good roads, a stable economy. Stereotyping, conservatives want the gov't to provide them a healthy defense, great tax system for business, police protection. How do you individually protect the entire nation? How do you individually build dams, railroads, schools, highways? We both depend on the gov't but just disagree on where they should end, we should start.

As for failure and poverty as disease, I'm not sure what you mean by that. I see both as motivators to do better also. I just don't want people starving to death on their way to a better life. We just became a foster family. We will be getting paid through taxes to care for other people's children. Definitely, those people should be caring for their own children, but there are many issues. Should those children starve, be neglected, beaten to death, deal with the consequences of drug use because their parents don't have it together? I don't think so. I think the need for foster care, for one example, is a crying shame. But, tell me what happens to these children if the gov't doesn't step in and pay people like me to care for these kids? Tell me how the problems
their parents cause society don't run into the next generation if these children are left where they are?

That's just one example of a liberal thinker who can responsibly work and raise her own children but see the need for somebody to step into situations where that simply is not happening.
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The pedigree of honey
Does not concern the bee;
A clover, any time, to him
Is aristocracy.
---Emily Dickinson
kathyp
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« Reply #55 on: September 13, 2010, 12:59:10 PM »

you need to distinguish between state and federal programs.  if a state taxes to support schools, fire, etc. that is the prerogative of the state.  when the federal government does it, they have over-stepped their constitutional limits.  the feds are tasked with providing for the common defense (military, etc.) but not with providing those things that you think you should have as day to day services (schools, fire, etc.).  the feds should not be involved in things like health care.  a state may do that if they wish.  business taxes, property taxes, consumption taxes, belong to the states, not the feds.

if you live in a state that is not meeting your needs and expectations, you have the right to move to another state.  if the feds have become oppressive, what do you do?  move to another country?

the majority of the constitution has to do with limiting federal powers. 

in almost all things in which the feds "help" there is a decline in quality of services and life.  as one example, disasters:  go read the history of all disasters before the feds got involved.  recovery was much faster. people pitched in from all over the country to help, and rebuilding was faster.  look at the post fed disasters.  everything is tied up in red tape, people sit around waiting for someone to do something for them. recovery and rebuilding is slowed by years...and in some cases, decades.

education is another example of government mis-management although unions are equally to blame.  our public school system sucks.  even when people think they live in a good school system, if you consider the content of the education that kids are getting, it sucks.  why can private schools or home schools spend less and turn out a better product?

i applaud your taking on foster parenting.  it's a tough job.  you have contracted with the state to care for these kids because their parents can't/wont.  may i point out the the welfare system has increased the number of families who are churning out kids and not capable of caring for them. 
the very safety net you want, increases the problem.

then we could get into the whole eternal extension of unemployment thing........
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
luvin honey
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« Reply #56 on: September 13, 2010, 01:19:48 PM »

So, basically you're differentiating between state and federal gov't, while I guess I was just lumping them all under gov't.

I don't know the ins and outs of the welfare system. I hate that it's there, but I can't accept what would happen to some if it weren't. I guess I just don't believe that most people would rather accept welfare than take care of themselves. I'm sure there are some happy to "suck off the gov't tit", to put it crudely, but I think most people have it in them to want to be independent and sometimes just need a hand up (not handout).

I've been lucky so far to have supportive family, health, higher education, land, some measure of intelligence (although some on here will certainly disagree Cheesy), and enough luck to make a go of life. I will probably (knock on wood) never need help from the gov't, but I'm glad it's there for people who have not had all life has offered me.
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The pedigree of honey
Does not concern the bee;
A clover, any time, to him
Is aristocracy.
---Emily Dickinson
bigbearomaha
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« Reply #57 on: September 13, 2010, 01:54:48 PM »

 I see it this way.

there is a line between the gov't making sure things can be done and the gov't doing things.

to me, a conservative expects the gov't to make sure things can be done by the people.

a liberal expects the gov't to do things for the people.

pretty simple


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luvin honey
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« Reply #58 on: September 13, 2010, 02:16:40 PM »

Again, it depends on what "What" is. Not to sound like Bill Clinton, or anything.  grin

I expect the gov't to build roads for me. I expect the gov't to collect my taxes. I expect the gov't to have some measure of police and military protection. I expect it to govern things I cannot--like airports, highway systems, city planning, etc. I expect the gov't to govern in a way that a hard-working person can make a living--taxes, etc. I expect them to regulate when necessary so that my life is livable--so that I can afford to live, can afford basic health insurance, can afford to save for retirement, have decent roads to drive on.

I do not expect the gov't to feed me, clothe me, house me.

So, I don't know what is so simple about defining liberal versus conservative.

May I also add that there are SO many viewpoints on which to be liberal versus conservative, but people tend to narrow it down to 2-3. How about religion, race, taxation, environment, sexual orientation, birth control, abortion, tax law and taxation, SS, healthcare, welfare, education, natural resources, infrastructure, international relationships, trade treaties, drug use, alcohol and tobacco production/use/taxation, the auto industry, banking, stock market, farming and food access/laws/prices....
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The pedigree of honey
Does not concern the bee;
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Is aristocracy.
---Emily Dickinson
kathyp
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« Reply #59 on: September 13, 2010, 02:28:57 PM »

Quote
I expect them to regulate when necessary so that my life is livable--so that I can afford to live, can afford basic health insurance, can afford to save for retirement, have decent roads to drive on.


you were pretty good right up to here.  when the government begins to take on the job of making life "livable", we are in trouble.  roads?  fair enough.  that's a state thing except for the feds having built and taking on the responsibility for the interstate highway system.  everything else should be up to you and your state if that's what you want the state to do. 

the best way for the government, state or federal, to make your life better is to not take your money so that you can spend it as you choose.  in fact, every time the government takes less, the revenue to the government goes up.  people spend, invest, and become more successful because they are making decisions about their own financing.  unfortunately both the feds and the states spend that increased revenue on expanded programs and art crap.  if governments would contract spending and prosperity increases when those rough times came, as they always do, it would not be such a crisis and disaster.

people want the government to do things that will improve their lives, but with a few exceptions for public services, all the government does it take your money, give it to someone else, and decrease you ability to succeed.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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