Need Bees Removed?
International
Beekeeping Forums
December 29, 2014, 03:17:12 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Beemaster's official FACEBOOK page
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar bee removal Login Register Chat  

Pages: 1 [2]  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Are you freaking kidding me  (Read 2660 times)
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 15342


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2010, 10:34:21 AM »

there is truth in that.  thing is, how do you decide?  if we were to be able to someway help the Iranians change their govt, that would probably be a good thing for all.  if we can support that moderate "Palestinians", there is a better chance for peace than if the radicals are in charge.

 on the other hand, when we try and fail, we can make things worse.  Kennedy tried to do something about Castro and his efforts probably strengthened Castro's power....certainly his paranoia.  we tried in Vietnam and aside from war deaths, our failure cost many millions of civilian lives after the war.

so, do we not interfere?  do we make sure that when we do we are successful...at all costs?  i don't have answerers except that i know real bad people exist out there, and those people will do anything to accomplish their goals.  somewhere in almost all those goals, our destruction is listed. 
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
bigbearomaha
Guest
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2010, 01:06:34 PM »

 I personally think it's fine to keep up on what the "bad guys" have planned.  try to accumulate "intelligence" on the activities and all.  however, only go where we are invited and not just to support some corporate guy's investments.

it is a tough line and protecting ourselves is one thing, trying to change people just to fit our advantage is, to me, ust sticking our nose where it doesn't belong.

Big Bear
Logged
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 15342


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2010, 02:50:02 PM »

Quote
I personally think it's fine to keep up on what the "bad guys" have planned.  try to accumulate "intelligence" on the activities and all.


this is what the Clinton admin did with AQ in Afghanistan.  they watched the training camps and gathered intel.

Quote
however, only go where we are invited and not just to support some corporate guy's investments.

i don't buy this argument.  corporate investment follows economic opportunity for growth.  that's why there are such huge investments in china, India, etc.  there will be large corporate investments in Iraq also if there is a chance to invest in an emerging market.  the idea that we went to war to create that market is not supportable.  it's a nice leftist anti-war talking point.

i understand not wanting to go to war.  i understand the objection to going into Iraq.  i objected when we did it.  in part, because we had so degraded our military that i didn't think we could do it.  it was after we were in, and i saw that AQ made Iraq a focal point, that i supported what we had done.  i think what we ought to do is keep some bombers over Afghanistan and continue to invest in Iraq.  it's a perfect place for a middle east base of operations and it may indeed become an economic force.  they certainly have the potential both in their people and resources.
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
bigbearomaha
Guest
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2010, 03:37:11 PM »

I didn't make an argument though, it's just my opinion.

again, that's the isolationist in me.

you might have faith that the "investments" made in those countries will pay off, but all  I have seen demonstrated over time is people in those countries taking what we hand them and turning it into weapons on us later.

nope.

You can't make people change and you can't buy their "love" 

I stand by my position to let them all drag each other down and if they turn a dark glance in our direction, turn em into a parking lot.

That's where Clinton and company went wrong, they got the intel and then just sat on it.  I am not saying only collect it and do nothing.  If they are sending something our way, don't pussyfoot around, turn those sand dunes into glass and  those jungles into deserts.

The problem with our gov't is they are too afraid to actually wage war when they set off talking a big game and about kicking butt, then just trying to buy their way out of it instead.

like I said earlier, if the gov't gonna have the cojones to talk war, then they better go to put them down and keep them down.

instead we get the half ass efforts we have gotten because they think they can salvage a couple of dollars.

Big Bear
Logged
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 15342


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2010, 04:05:39 PM »

Quote
The problem with our gov't is they are too afraid to actually wage war when they set off talking a big game and about kicking butt

absolutely true, although i don't think it has anything to do with saving money.  a drawn out war cost more than just flattening a place.  i think it has more to do with lack of balls and the fear that they will cause more long term problems.  if you have no balls and you go to war already afraid of the consequences, you should not go to war.

i'm not saying we can turn them into friends although Iraq traditionally has been a more secular country.  i do think that after having invested so much, we should do what works for us, and the best thing we could do (for them and us) is plant a nice big base out in the sand,  and stay.  it should be a condition of our standing down.
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 15342


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2010, 07:01:03 PM »

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/cats/federal_govt_finances_employment/federal_budget--receipts_outlays_and_debt.html

here are the numbers.  you can read them and draw your own conclusions. 
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
tecumseh
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 391

Location: College Station, Tx


« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2010, 08:23:09 AM »

another snip..
i don't know how to respond to your statements.  they are based in talking points and opinion, but don't really offer anything for discussion.  they are the same points that have been offered since the beginning and they are not relevant.

tecumseh:
no I don't suspect you do.

just a clue for you if you did want a fair airing of any issue.

first you start with real information and not rumor and bias information sources where the answer to the question has already been determined ahead of the asking.  secondly... then you don't marginalize questions posed by others with the wave of a hand. 

for myself I am just looking at the data like I might not be someone from Mars.  your talking points and opinion are easy to recognize and reduce to their real value.... which is essentially zero.

you seem to be suggesting that my information or view was also tossed up by Fox News?  I suspect not. 

so the accounting period in question is not relevant?  so where this or that funds has gone (or disappeared) should not effect the total end sum?  humm... you must employ one of those feel good accounting methods that only list the benefits and none of the cost?

and for my last input on this topic (I am done here with the small talk).... at the end of the day this war will cost in lives and dollar amounts much more than anyone here is capable of calculating.  the total economic cost of the war is simply something that cannot be known.   


 
Logged

I am 'the panther that passes in the night'... tecumseh.
Pages: 1 [2]  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Beemaster's Beekeeping Ring
Previous | Home | Join | Random | Next
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Sitemap Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.155 seconds with 22 queries.

Google visited last this page November 10, 2014, 03:14:32 AM
anything