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### Author Topic: Harvesting honey using this method  (Read 4533 times)

#### Finski

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##### Re: Harvesting honey using this method
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2010, 12:17:58 AM »

You save a lot money if you give foundations.
You need in one good hive 5 kg foundations which is equal 40 kg = 80 lb honey

Bees need 8 kg honey to make 1 kg comb wax.
10 langstroth foundations are equal 1 kg wax.
To draw 10 foundations to combs bees need about 1 kg wax more.

These calculations are pretty same as this reseach have got on field:

http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/fdnvsdrawn.htm

Bees like to draw drone combs without foundations. You may also see
how much natural amount of dronecombs (20%) affects on honey yield
http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/apido/abs/2002/01/Seeley/Seeley.html

Colonies with drone comb gained only 25.2  16.0 kg whereas those without drone comb gained 48.8  14.8 kg.

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#### alfred

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##### Re: Harvesting honey using this method
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2010, 12:46:58 AM »
I have been doing it pretty much this way. I have some pf120's those I scrape into the bucket with a rubber spatula then the rest I have are foundationless which I either cut just like he did or the really nice looking ones come inside to be cut for comb honey. It works real well and is much less mess inside and more efficient. If you keep the bucket closed between frames and are carefull about spillage there are no robbing problems. Then I just put the frames right back on the hive for clean up.

#### HomeBru

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##### Re: Harvesting honey using this method
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2010, 01:21:02 AM »

You save a lot money if you give foundations.
You need in one good hive 5 kg foundations which is equal 40 kg = 80 lb honey

Bees need 8 kg honey to make 1 kg comb wax.
10 langstroth foundations are equal 1 kg wax.
To draw 10 foundations to combs bees need about 1 kg wax more.

These calculations are pretty same as this reseach have got on field:

http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/fdnvsdrawn.htm

Bees like to draw drone combs without foundations. You may also see
how much natural amount of dronecombs (20%) affects on honey yield
http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/apido/abs/2002/01/Seeley/Seeley.html

Colonies with drone comb gained only 25.2  16.0 kg whereas those without drone comb gained 48.8  14.8 kg.

From the honeybeeworld article: "If there is a serious plan to make money, at least 80% of the 5 standard supers of comb should be fully drawn when starting out." I get that. If the plan is to make money and I'll add, on a large scale, extract.

From edpsciences: "I suggest that providing colonies with drone comb, as part of a program of controlling Varroa destructor without pesticides..." Work to prevent bees from doing what they want to do in growing drones in order to increase honey harvest?

The difference is in the beekeeper's philosophy of keeping. I've spent time with beeks who are out to make money on their hives. They love keeping bees and respect the process, but they're the same who tell me that bees won't draw comb without foundation and hives can't be kept without significant intervention on the beekeeper's part.

Yes, there are methods that provide the highest level of \$\$\$ per hive possible just like there are methods of getting the most \$\$\$ for beef, chicken, produce, fruit, etc. My free-range chickens cost more per pound/egg than commercial high-density methods, but I like that my chickens are healthier and seem happier. My heritage vegetables are more susceptible to disease and have a wide variation in size, but I think they taste better than commercial varieties.

I'll be surprised if I ever grow to more than 20 hives so I have no plan to move to extraction. Add to that a desire to harvest and sell wax and crush and strain seems pretty good to me. I know folks who are working hundreds of hives using commercial methods. I'm fine with them using whatever methods they prefer. I'll do what fits my style best. Am I a mad man for doing so?

#### Finski

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##### Re: Harvesting honey using this method
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2010, 04:02:36 AM »
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Everyone will be blessed by his own views.

I have no philosophy in beekeeping. I just do it.

To sell wax, as raw wax it has not much value. When I ask to make foundations from my own wax, its is about 3 \$/kilo = 10 foundations in langstroth size.
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#### Jim 134

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##### Re: Harvesting honey using this method
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2010, 06:02:56 AM »

To sell wax, as raw wax it has not much value. When I ask to make foundations from my own wax, its is about 3 \$/kilo = 10 foundations in langstroth size.

I can get about 10\$ to 12\$ for 1 lb (1/2 kilo) of bees wax

BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 06:15:49 AM by Jim 134 »
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

#### Finski

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##### Re: Harvesting honey using this method
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2010, 09:14:06 AM »

I can get about 10\$ to 12\$ for 1 lb (1/2 kilo) of bees wax

BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

I wonder how? How much is your foundations price to beekeeper?
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#### AllenF

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##### Re: Harvesting honey using this method
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2010, 07:24:57 PM »
If you get \$10 to \$12 for a pound of wax (which is an excellent price, good job), what do you get for 8 pounds of honey, the equivalent of what a bee eats to make the one pound?

#### kathyp

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##### Re: Harvesting honey using this method
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2010, 07:41:48 PM »
i have never gotten drone comb in my honey supers.  guess if they put honey in and not drones, it doesn't matter  :evil:

the thing is, it doesn't make much sense to me to pull out the extractor for a couple shallow supers.  if it does to you,  that's just fine.  this year i had lots to do so the extractor came out. it's just extra cleanup.  even so, the combs that were funky still got cut out and we had cut comb....which is  my preferred way to eat it anyway.
One could not learn history from architecture any more than one could learn it from books. Statues, inscriptions, memorial stones, the names of streets ? anything that might throw light upon the past had been systematically altered. (1.8.85)

George Orwell  "1984"

#### AllenF

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##### Re: Harvesting honey using this method
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2010, 09:08:53 PM »
I need to confess something to everyone.   I have yet to wash the extractor for 3 whole weeks after I finished the last boxes.  I know.   But I was waiting for a warm day to get out the pressure washer (not a hot day) and wash everything and maybe the truck also.   :-D

#### kathyp

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##### Re: Harvesting honey using this method
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2010, 09:39:58 PM »
bathtub.
One could not learn history from architecture any more than one could learn it from books. Statues, inscriptions, memorial stones, the names of streets ? anything that might throw light upon the past had been systematically altered. (1.8.85)

George Orwell  "1984"

#### Bee Happy

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##### Re: Harvesting honey using this method
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2010, 09:56:15 PM »
That is almost exactly how I cut them if I'm only taking a few frames out of a hive - the exception being that I make a vertical cut in the middle so the comb, in tumbling out falls neatly one piece at a time into the tray or bucket, instead of one uncontrollable slab.
be happy and make others happy.

#### Finski

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##### Re: Harvesting honey using this method
« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2010, 11:50:36 PM »
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Here pressed wax foundation is 13 US \$ /kg

If I sell raw wax to the foundatiion maker, the prise is 5 \$

a wax 22 \$/kg is  8 kg honey.

Retail honey proce is about 10 \$/kg.  8 kg honey is 80 \$ and as wax 22 \$.

http://www.honey.com/nhb/industry/industry-statistics/
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#### Michael Bush

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##### Re: Harvesting honey using this method
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2010, 12:42:42 AM »
>why would someone crush and strain?

Because a good extractor is in the realm of \$1000.

I see bees build their own comb so much faster than foundation, that I do not believe that giving them foundation helps production at all.  In fact I believe it slows down production.  Now drawn comb is another matter, but again, it's a matter of scale...

"A comb honey beekeeper really needs, in addition to his bees and the usual apiary equipment and tools, only one other thing, and that is a pocket knife. The day you go into producing extracted honey, on the other hand, you must begin to think not only of an extractor, which is a costly machine used only a relatively minute part of the year, but also of uncapping equipment, strainers, settling tanks, wax melters, bottle filling equipment, pails and utensils galore and endless things. Besides this you must have a place to store supers of combs, subject to damage by moths and rodents and, given the nature of beeswax, very subject to destruction by fire. And still more: You must begin to think in terms of a whole new building, namely, a honey house, suitably constructed, supplied with power, and equipped....

"All this seems obvious enough, and yet time after time I have seen novice beekeepers, as soon as they had built their apiaries up to a half dozen or so hives, begin to look around for an extractor. It is as if one were to establish a small garden by the kitchen door, and then at once begin looking for a tractor to till it with. Unless then, you have, or plan eventually to have, perhaps fifty or more colonies of bees, you should try to resist looking in bee catalogs at the extractors and other enchanting and tempting tools that are offered and instead look with renewed fondness at your little pocket knife, so symbolic of the simplicity that is the mark of every truly good life."

Expense of making wax

Richard Taylor on the expense of making wax:

"The opinion of experts once was that the production of beeswax in a colony required great quantities of nectar which, since it was turned into wax, would never be turned into honey. Until quite recently it was thought that bees could store seven pounds of honey for every pound of beeswax that they needed to manufacture for the construction of their combs--a figure which seems never to have been given any scientific basis, and which is in any case quite certainly wrong. The widespread view that if the combs were used over and over, through the use of the honey extractor, then the bees would be saved the trouble of building them and could convert the nectar thus saved into honey, was only minimally correct. A strong colony of bees will make almost as much comb honey as extracted honey on a strong honey flow. The advantage of the extractor, in increasing harvests, is that honey stored from minor flows, or gathered by the bees over many weeks of the summer, can easily be extracted, but comb honey cannot be easily produced under those conditions."
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

#### Finski

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##### Re: Harvesting honey using this method
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2010, 01:36:42 AM »
that I do not believe that giving them foundation helps production at all.

It has been researched so many times, but you do not believe. I do not believe natural combs.

When  I started almost 50 years ago, my teacher told that when you put a swarm on ready combs, it gather honey awfully much.

But it is same where you do believe.
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#### kathyp

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##### Re: Harvesting honey using this method
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2010, 01:50:01 AM »
swarms seem to be constipated with wax  :-D  in a one hour drive they will start making comb on the box lid.  if i hive a 10 frame swarm, in one week they will have drawn out foundationless frames and started filling them.  of course, flow is everything.

i had some honey supers this year with comb and some without.  i saw no difference in the amount of honey from = size hives.  i will say that one hive did make some messy comb and i should have known better because that hive has always been messy.  other than that, drawn or not, they seemed to fill at the same rate.

finsky, i don't doubt your observations, but mine seem to be different.  i also do not have a foundation maker around.  i have to buy mine either through mail order or at the more expensive bee supply store.  i have had really good luck with foundationless, so i don't hesitate to recommend it.  if others use foundation, that's fine also.
One could not learn history from architecture any more than one could learn it from books. Statues, inscriptions, memorial stones, the names of streets ? anything that might throw light upon the past had been systematically altered. (1.8.85)

George Orwell  "1984"

#### Bee Happy

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##### Re: Harvesting honey using this method
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2010, 02:33:18 AM »
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Here pressed wax foundation is 13 US \$ /kg

If I sell raw wax to the foundatiion maker, the prise is 5 \$

a wax 22 \$/kg is  8 kg honey.

Retail honey proce is about 10 \$/kg.  8 kg honey is 80 \$ and as wax 22 \$.

http://www.honey.com/nhb/industry/industry-statistics/
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and the market value of a 4X4 square of honey in the comb?
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#### Finski

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##### Re: Harvesting honey using this method
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2010, 07:27:16 AM »

and the market value of a 4X4 square of honey in the comb?

why?
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anything