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Author Topic: Need legal minds....  (Read 4117 times)
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« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2010, 11:31:35 PM »

This whole health nut garbage about "Chemicals" always gets my goat.  Do they not understand that EVERYTHING is made out of chemicals?  H2O, water, is a chemical.  O2, that you need to breathe, is a CHEMICAL.  The cellulose your coffee table is made out of is a CHEMICAL.  Nothing other than an ABSOLUTE VACUUM is "Chemical Free".  Even the purest of pure honey is therefore, by definition, a CHEMICAL.  Honestly, if we're all such big morons that we need THAT level of hand holding to go on living day to day then maybe nature needs to wipe the slate of those that incapable of surviving without someone who "knows better" policing everything for them.

YOU GO GIRL!!!!
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deknow
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« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2010, 12:10:52 AM »

And the regulators are gracious enough to admit that they have a 5% margin of error in determining that chemically.
i don't belive this is a regulator issue. 

the lab that we talked to does 2 tests for HFCS ($40 and $70).  the cheaper one could detect 10% HFCS and up...the more expensive one 5% and up.  ...but rice syrup is a bigger problem.  rice syrup has a profile similar to nectar (unlike corn derived HFCS), and although the results show abnormalities (i believe in the protein profile), they have no definitive test for what the adulteration is...therefore they can't conclude its adulterated.  they also said that it's common that packers have a contract that they can't refuse the honey unless it tests adulterated...the packer is stuck with the honey even though they know it's "funny honey".

deknow
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2010, 12:12:56 AM »

>No beekeeper knows what their bees worked, what chemical are in the honey, and at what levels. So lets stop fooling ourselves. Unless we submit samples and pay for the analysis, nobody can say they have "pure" honey. And lets cut the crap on ever-changing terms to fool the public like "Treatment Free". Everyone's honey is contaminated.. Period!

So we should just dump in whatever we want, it won't matter anyway...

But I AM in control of what *I* put in the hives... but I guess I am not responsible for that... And all honey is the same no matter what we put in the hive... right?
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BjornBee
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« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2010, 07:21:46 AM »

>No beekeeper knows what their bees worked, what chemical are in the honey, and at what levels. So lets stop fooling ourselves. Unless we submit samples and pay for the analysis, nobody can say they have "pure" honey. And lets cut the crap on ever-changing terms to fool the public like "Treatment Free". Everyone's honey is contaminated.. Period!

So we should just dump in whatever we want, it won't matter anyway...

But I AM in control of what *I* put in the hives... but I guess I am not responsible for that... And all honey is the same no matter what we put in the hive... right?


Way off base MB.

I never said anything about just dumping in whatever.

This conversation, or at least from what I started, and the quotes you mention, has to do with beekeepers pointing fingers and pulling stuff off of other beekeepers websites and making wide accusations, while conveniently using any number of "terms" on their own label in attempts to fool the consumer themselves.

Point is, many things are considered contaminates. When I mention Chemicals, I an referring to beekeeper based mite treatments, not the rarely used feeding of HFCS on a small number of non-honey producing nucs. But if I'm going to be called out and called a liar by someone who is calling the kettle black, I think we should just pony up to the bar and be honest with ourselves.

Nobody knows knows what is in their honey. You can throw around terms like "Treatment free" and about a dozen other terms. The industry allows the buying consumers to assume that the honey is pure from such contaminates, and to my knowledge, no beekeeper here actually tests their honey ( I do...  Wink  ) for such things as chemicals, etc.

Every beekeeper out there has bees that will collect from soda cans, commercial sugar sources, chemical tainted nectar sources, and about every other nasty thing you can think of. The industry has for years fought the actual testing of honey by the average beekeeper and large operations alike. Better for everyone that they not look was always the standard thought. They may bee looking at imports for tainted honey, but that for me is to protect those big guys and their interests. Certainly has little to do with the 99% of the smaller guys or the buying public, that is for sure.

Anyways, when beekeepers start breaking up into small groups and standing on different corners, attacking others because of the terms they use, or the marketing involved, and sometimes with ridiculous accusations such as what was thrown my way, maybe it's time we all fess up. And maybe we should realize that standing pointing fingers at others, while one provides no proof of the purity of your own honey, is about as hypocritical as it gets.

I don't think there is anyone that can suggest they have pure honey, without clear testing. Yeah, some will try to paint this as a "HFCS" debate, or by using ever-changing descriptions on their own label, try to suggest they are one step ahead (or above) everyone else. But they are not.

It's as if, and what was mentioned, that "we use this way to describe our honey" and for what purpose? So they can tout not actually lying to consumers, but by mentioning management tactics, that have nothing to do with the purity of the honey produced. So in the end, stating "Chemical free" is nothing more than a marketing term at best, with the realization that that honey being sold under that labeling, may or may not be any better than the guy down the street that same very beekeeper is attacking.

It's not about about dumping honey. It's about an industry not knowing what IS in the honey, beekeepers not knowing what is in their honey, yet standing pointing fingers attacking others.

Very simple concept.
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BjornBee
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« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2010, 07:26:42 AM »

(i clicked the link at the bottom of each of his posts...just above "marking queens is gay" or somesuch nonsense).

Can't we have at least one discussion without the personal attacks?

For the record, I did not add the comment on marking queens. I can only assume any number of moderators or perhaps even John himself. I happened to think the "duel" meaning comment was funny (or should I say...Gay!  Wink  ) and was appropriate for some of the recent conversations. But if your still looking for personal attacks, please realize that maybe sending off nasty attacks, and offending the moderators, would be more on the mark concerning your personal concerns over my signature.....  rolleyes
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BjornBee
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« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2010, 07:56:04 AM »

If the bees made it, it is pure honey. Different honeys are made using different recipes. If bees put arsenic in it, it is still pure honey. Who are we to say their recipe is wrong?

Well iddee, I hope you never lose any hives to pesticides or other chemicals. With your suggestion, no beekeeper could ever report, or claim harm, from sprays, intentional poisoning, or anything else. Your suggesting that if it is in the hive, it is pure honey (and I could assume pollen, etc. ? ), is questionable to me.  

I would venture to say, that if bees actually collect chemicals in large enough amounts (and they do), that massive bees deaths or even hive loss is seen, I would venture to say that your comments might just be a tad off the mark. Even at lower levels, where perhaps bee death is not seen, can anyone really suggest ALL honey collected, by the very fact that bees collected it, should or could be call "Pure".

Your stating that honey based on the fact it was collected and made by bees, that it is pure. I would venture to say that is very convenient, yet is probably way off the mark in regards to the actual meaning applied to the consumer to which reads "pure" on most honey bottles. "Pure" to the consumer, means that it is not contaminated or funky with crap. And so it comes down once again, huge differences of what we mean, and what we suggest to the public.

In an industry where many, and I'm not talking the CCD big boys, are effected by pesticide sprays and hive health is a constant concern, how long are we to suggest that because the bees put it in the hive, that it is pure, then pass it off to the public while acting ignorant and turning a blind eye?

We are making "pure" out to be anything a bee puts in the hive, regardless of where, what, and what the end product is composed of. I can not agree with that.

I bet most consumers expect or comprehend a bit different understanding. I know I do.
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deknow
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« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2010, 09:09:52 AM »

Can't we have at least one discussion without the personal attacks?

i intentionally kept things polite and civil....until you flung the term "spewing crap" in my direction.

deknow
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BjornBee
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« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2010, 09:16:31 AM »

Can't we have at least one discussion without the personal attacks?

i intentionally kept things polite and civil....until you flung the term "spewing crap" in my direction.

deknow

So you went off and ignorantly attacked the moderators (or least whoever put it there), with the best thing you could come up with, that being based on a "signature".   lau

When it was placed in the signature, I had wondered who would use it eventually to attack me, while probably making a point over it due to a lack of real points or dialog of some topic at hand. But now I know....you win the prize! I guess it can come down now that has been answered.

Looks like a long winter......

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« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2010, 09:26:31 AM »

Quote
When I mention Chemicals, I an referring to beekeeper based mite treatments.
i can't think of anything more misleading to tell your customers.

Quote
So you went off and ignorantly attacked the moderators (or least whoever put it there), with the best thing you could come up with, that being an attack on a "signature".
regardless of who put it there, they are your own words, reflecting your own attitudes.

deknow
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BjornBee
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« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2010, 09:43:49 AM »

Quote
When I mention Chemicals, I an referring to beekeeper based mite treatments.
i can't think of anything more misleading to tell your customers.

Quote
So you went off and ignorantly attacked the moderators (or least whoever put it there), with the best thing you could come up with, that being an attack on a "signature".
regardless of who put it there, they are your own words, reflecting your own attitudes.

deknow

So you are assuming from what?" From a bit of humor I once made in regards to beekeepers running around with nail polish in their pockets. Is this how you work? You take pun, a joke, or a bit of humor, tuck it away in your "hate pouch" only to be brought out in frustration in a later conversation towards a person you do not like.

I hardly think you are qualified to make mention or think you have a clue of my own attitudes.

As for my customers, I don't understand your great leap of faith in somehow suggesting my use of sugar or anything else in attempts to keep bees alive in NUCS and nonproducing honey units, has anything to do with my very limited honey production. I have already stated very clearly that except for mainly nucs, I do not feed my hives. Anyone actually knowing me, or having spent time at my place, is well aware of that. So yes, for the consumers of my honey, We do not use chemicals in the hives, or at least the ones you selectively and conveniently harp on. I can make that distinction and pass on that to my customers, without the need to change terms and "fool" anyone by the methods you use. I make that statement on only my honey page, which is directly aimed at those buying honey from me, in hives that are not tainted with any chemicals. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Or is it due to your blindness by your attack style and lack of respect of another beekeeper, even after it being explained to you.

As you stand on the other corner attacking fellow beekeepers, pointing fingers, at least use information and specifics based on truth. But I am glad that you continue to back up my suggestions about how this industry is full of those who place themselves on pedestals, make their own rationale for what they do, while pointing fingers. It does help make my point in so many ways.

I bare my soul every day. I openly state what we do. My operation is open for all to see. Even the SHB infested hives I had on display at the picnic with over 150 beekeepers. I wonder how many other beekeepers would of been brave enough to let that be seen? I pulled out my worst graft of 3 cells in my queen rearing class so other could see that it's not always 100%. We could of conveniently staged "full cell bars" and stuck our chest out. We don't fool anyone. My website is proudly displayed, my number, address, and personal information is easily found. You......are not even willing to answer a question of your name or anything else I have asked for many times. So go hide, point fingers, make assumptions, and play your little silly attack games.
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iddee
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« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2010, 10:02:38 AM »

1... I have never taken honey from a colony that was killed by pesticide. I don't know anyone who has.

2. Most things I have read showed pesticide poisons were found in stored pollen rather than stored honey. I've never read of US honey that was found to contain any more pesticide than other raw foods that were tested. Can you show me one?

3. I still say if you don't add anything to your hives and harvest from robust colonies, you are getting pure honey.

Now, Bj, there is an old saying I think you should consider. I copied it from a google site.
"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference"

If you will notice, there is one poster that I no longer reply to, and there's a reason for it.
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« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2010, 10:17:57 AM »

1... I have never taken honey from a colony that was killed by pesticide. I don't know anyone who has.

2. Most things I have read showed pesticide poisons were found in stored pollen rather than stored honey. I've never read of US honey that was found to contain any more pesticide than other raw foods that were tested. Can you show me one?

3. I still say if you don't add anything to your hives and harvest from robust colonies, you are getting pure honey.

Now, Bj, there is an old saying I think you should consider. I copied it from a google site.
"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference"

 lau

I'll keep that in mind.

As for #2, I think the point may be is that nobody is really looking. I know for years, the industry fought to some degree, the random sampling of honey on the shelves. It was better off that nobody looked, and we just let the public assume they were buying a "pure" product. But I think the honey perhaps produced years ago, was probably less likely to have chemical contamination. In today's world of perfect lawns and the ever decreasing forage that bees have in many areas, coupled with many more pesticides being used by homeowners and everyone else, it would be intersting to see what would be found in random samples of honey collected from across the country. I bet the results would not be very good for the industry. I bet that can of worms is one left better unopened.

Some suggest that honey or the bees are like any other product out there. But you can control what your chickens and cows eat. You can not say the same for bees. And we know that chemicals build up over time. That does not happen with chicken eggs or anything else compared too. Bees are unique and present a situating where they could be dragging in all kinds of poisons, only to be detrimental after the crop is collected and the supers removed. Can't say for sure,. I don't think there are studies out there for all this that we discuss.

I guess I should answer you with a question? Tell me who IS looking at the honey produced by the hundreds of thousands of beekeepers out there? Nobody as far as I know.
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« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2010, 10:27:53 AM »

I agree.

As to your last question, the answer is "the bees". There anatomy is no where near as strong as ours and they will die processing anything that may even come close to making us sick.

Of course, that is just my .02, with no science or research to back it up.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2010, 10:43:22 AM »

KISS  =  "100% Honey"


*Plus whatever the bees dragged in on their dirty little feet.  grin grin grin
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BjornBee
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« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2010, 11:28:04 AM »

I agree.

As to your last question, the answer is "the bees". There anatomy is no where near as strong as ours and they will die processing anything that may even come close to making us sick.

Of course, that is just my .02, with no science or research to back it up.

Thank you for the dialog.

Hmmm....On the surface, that sounds good. But could you not say the same about mutes and other insects?

So why should we not assume that bees may build a certain resistance to certain chemicals and poisons over time? We know bees have been for the most part, able to live with certain chemicals, and verified with CCD sample testing, at levels that previously would of been deemed deadly. Only when these "resistant" chemicals that the bees have been living with for years, are mixed with newly introduced chemicals, did we see deadly consequences.

So bees may have the ability to be resistant to certain chemicals, allowing them to possibly collect higher and higher levels of chemicals, only to pass them on in the form of pollen and honey.

But I will admit, this is only observations, and not anything fully researched. But the question as to whether bees can and do develop resistance to chemicals, makes the possibility of larger amounts in tainted honey, a real possibility. I'm not so sure about anything harmful would kill a bee and not be stored for later consumption. And lets not limit this to honey. We should include all hove products. I know for a fact that the chemical amounts including DDT that I found in commercial pollen, was enough to know I would not eat any of that pollen, let alone honey produced from the same. And some of those chemicals were beekeeper induced chemicals at levels in the pollen that suggested a very high amount in the bee spit to which they use to form the pollen balls.

Anybody know of information on "resistance" bees when it comes to chemicals?
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« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2010, 11:43:19 AM »

We could go on forever with the what if's. All I can say there is "Eat your honey often, and maybe you can build the resistance at the same time the bees do".

I know as a kid we sprayed DDT throughout the house, kitchen included, on a regular basis, and we all lived to adulthood.

Of course, in my case, there may have been a bit of suspected brain damage, but it was never proven.   Kiss  grin  grin
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« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2010, 08:48:33 AM »

Mike,

Thanks for another enlightening thread. It seems I learn tons of info every time you post, ( including a lot about the detractors ) it seems that even though the Truth shall set you free....some prefer to be locked into their prisons of their own creation. Now I have to wonder if the peaches I bought in Chambersburg last week need to be tested for a systemic pesticide, that was in the soil from years past, the Fruit market said organic and treatment free, but one has to wonder. Wink grin
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« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2010, 09:28:08 AM »

You might ought to not trust them. I think it be best if you send them to me for testing. I will send you a complete report on my findings.

Each pie, cobbler, turnover, will be reported on.
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« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2010, 08:26:25 PM »

You might ought to not trust them. I think it be best if you send them to me for testing. I will send you a complete report on my findings.

Each pie, cobbler, turnover, will be reported on.

Send me some too,a double blind test never hurt.
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« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2010, 09:54:06 PM »

Hmmm, I am not sure you two can be trusted....LOL...I think the all the testing you are going to do will be taste testing.... tongue
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