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Author Topic: The "JUST SAY NO" PARTY  (Read 4177 times)
bigbearomaha
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« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2010, 09:01:04 PM »

Quote
i want constitutionalists

see, we agree already and I didn't have to be involved in party politics to do it.   Wink

heh heh.

you and I agree more than you might think, I believe the best plan already exists  (the constitution) and if people focused on that rather than party agendas, we'd be in a much better place.

Big Bear
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beek4018
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« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2010, 08:00:52 AM »

KathyP:



Quote:
"can you provide some examples of them being given what they want and saying he's unreasonable?  or changing their minds?  you don't even have to stick to the health care debate."

I remember it clearly from the days when healthcare was being debated, but couldn't find the reference I was thinking of.  But in a short (5 min. Google search before I have to run off to work I found these two items on different topics:

Healthcare:

http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/02/16/health-care-republicans-oppose-their-own-idea/

Immigration:

http://personalmoneystore.com/moneyblog/2010/07/01/obama-immigration-reform/


Quote:
elaborate on  "the country we once were" please. 

By this I mean that if we start setting arbitrary space requirements for some religions and not others based on purely emotional reactions, and not on equal treatment for everyone even if we don't agree with them, then we've lost one of the things that makes this country special and worth fighting for in the first place.

Yes, some people question the motives and connections of the guy proposing the mosque. but either we have enough to convict him of something and deny his claim or we don't.  We don't deny people anything in this country based on suspicion.
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kathyp
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« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2010, 09:06:50 AM »

you are correct.  17 years ago, he and some others did.  sorry, i thought you were talking about current complaints.  he has since changed his mind, as have others.  i can't say for sure why, but i don't think it has anything to do with just fighting what obama wants.  perhaps it's because we are seeing how it's not working in MA.  perhaps someone even then pointed out that it was not constitutional.  maybe they are RINO compromisers.  Hatch is.

haven't read the second link because i pretty much know that you are going to bust mccain and a couple of others with it.  rightly so. 

welcome to the coffee house.  you are going to be fun to chat with!  smiley
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2010, 12:04:15 PM »

was thinking about this argument as i was burning it off at the gym.  

i don't think anyone argues that there is a legal right (subject to zoning, etc.) to the building of the mosque.  there is a difference between legal rights and moral authority.  

i have the legal right to shoot dogs in the horse pasture.  the particular dog that comes here now would not hurt anything, and he seems to have made friends with the horses.  he even gets along with the barn cats. he's so old that the horses are more danger to him, than he is to them.  while i can legally shoot him, i do not have the moral authority to do so.  because everyone knows this old dog and his temperament, i would not have support from others is i did shoot him unless i could show that his behavior had changed.

Lincoln had the moral authority, but not the legal right to issue the emancipation proclamation.  even though he was wrong legally, through the years he has gained great backing for the decision he made.

if this "community center" and mosque were being built to heal wounds an foster understanding, it would not be being put where it is.  the choice of locations might have been innocent.  once the outcry was heard, the best choice would have been to find another place  and announce that you understood the outcry and wanted to be sensitive to the feelings of the 9/11 families.  choosing another place would have given moral authority even though they had the legal right to build in the first spot.

the choice they have made makes their whole argument suspect.  it makes people wonder and investigate whether or not there is another reason for building there.

and it's Muslims also

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/06/AR2010080603006.html

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Mischief+Manhattan/3370303/story.html#ixzz0w4TscDTW

BTW...remember that the past immigration bill was killed by conservatives not democrats.  there is a difference between conservatives and a lot of republican leaders...especially the old ones who have been there so long they don't know anything but compromise.
i once swore that i would never vote for McCain.  i had to eat that.  it was not because i liked him, but because he was the proverbial lesser of two evils.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2010, 12:02:29 AM »

I agree that Obama has been fairly ineffective, but if you are being honest with yourself, the Republicans (in Congress and the House, not necessarily the folks on the street) have been the PARTY OF NO.  Even when Obama has given them exactly what they've asked for, they suddenly jump ship and say HE's being unreasonable and they don't want what they asked for anymore.  They did that time and again during the health care debate.

As for the New York mosque issue.  Ask yourself, would we even be having this debate if (granted it's a BIG if) 911 had never happened.  Of course we wouldn't.  Freedom of religion would win out.  So, any objections to it are emotional pure and simple, and have NO basis in law or the U.S. Constitution.  It really is that simple.

And let's get this straight once and for all.  The building is NOT on the site of Ground Zero, it's blocks way.  If three blocks is too close today, then who is to say a few years from now 10 blocks is too close.  Thenhen Queens is too close.  Next it'll be Nebraska is too close.  And finally we just can't stand having them in the U.S., period. And presto change-o, we are not the country we once were.

I have to ask - why is the word "NO" given such bad press? - such as, "NO! you may not guzzle half a bottle of jack daniels and then try to race helicopters through the mountains." or "NO! I'm not going to let you use the US constitution for bathroom tissue."  Just can't see how no is such a terrible thing to say when it's needed.

Indonesia was  - officially still is - religiously free and neutral, but as Islam has spread there, official blindness and unofficial oppression of other faiths and faiths deemed 'not muslim enough' are being attacked with increasing harassment and violence.  - We are not dealing with a religion that supports mutual freedom. The controlling Islamic interests (thugs)  in Indonesia are more of a "We are free to worship as we see fit, burning your church is part of our religion."
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« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2010, 08:43:20 AM »

Dear Bee Happy,

"No" by itself is fine and often justified.  But use of the word "No" just to be obstructionist, without following up and offering an alternative, useful and constructive alternative is an unpardonable sin coming from an elected leader.

"No. That's a bad bad idea and here's my reasoning...."", is fine.  So long as it's followed up with " Here's what I'd like to propose as an alternative that will satisfy boht your valid points and mine..."



As for your point about Islam....

Yes, there are a lot of crazy radical Muslim thugs. Granted. Nobody with a reasonable mind disputes that.

But the Israelis are currently doing some pretty despicable things in Palestine.  Are all Jews bad?

There have been some pretty ghastly, gross and vile atrocities committed by priests, ministers, bishops, cardinals and Pope's over the years. In fact I venture to say that there have been far more people butchered, sodomized, and tortured by Christians over the last thousand years than in all of the other genocides combined.  Are all Christians bad?

Judging the followers of any religion based on the most visible actions of their extreme ranks and their leaders (often the same people) is taking the bullet train to a religions war, and a walk down a path that humanity can ill afford to tread.

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bigbearomaha
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« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2010, 08:56:51 AM »

Why are the democrats getting so bent out of shape by the idea of republicans being obstructionist and stubborn when they have used the exact same tactics when they were in the same position in previous years?

IS it they feel no one should steal their trademark behavior or something?

Both parties use the same techniques and strategies to promote their party agendas while the American citizens, in general, go under served as usual because both lowlife parties are more interested in obtaining power instead of dong whats best for everyone.

democrats have no room to whine, they do the same things.

Big Bear
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beek4018
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« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2010, 09:54:43 AM »

Big Bear,

Can you site specific examples of democrats doing the same thing during previous administrations?
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kathyp
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« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2010, 10:03:17 AM »

beek, not to change the subject, but this is my standard question to those who support what's going on in this admin....if you do....:  what do you like about what this congress and president are doing?  kind of a broad question, but answer it as/if you wish.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2010, 10:31:49 AM »

Honestly, I'm disappointed in Obama.  I think he was elected with enough of a majority that he should never have been so concerned with "reaching across the aisle".

You won.  Do what you said you'd do.  I think he should have been stronger about snubbing the conservatives and if they complain, the answer is "BECAUSE I WON THE darn ELECTION" If you don't like it you can vote me out in four years.  But for now we're gonna try it my way.

I think if he had the true courage of his convictions and weren't so driven to be re-elected he'd have more support as a leader of something - anything from people on both sides.

That said - I do not have ANY buyer's remorse.  I think electing Shell Shock Johnny (McCain) would have been a HUGE mistake. He swings with the prevailing wind even more than Obama, and he surely would have died from a stress induced heart attack by now and we'd have President Palin.  I like to think the CIA would be smart enough to have an assassination plot in place to get her out of there ASAP if that had happened.

What I do like about Obama the credit card reform he's put through.  And healthcare, while flawed, is at least a starting point to build on in an area that we have to deal with.  As someone with a lifetime disability whose medical costs hampered my family greatly.

The economy is a tricky issue. I think he's doing the best that he can with a bad situation.  And NOT because Bush left him a big steaming heap (though funding a war off the books while we had a huge deficit is certainly part of the problem). I think the world is readjusting and resetting itself economically.  The prosperity and endless growth expectations of 1990-2008 was unrealistic and unsustainable.  I think the markets are naturally deflating and resetting themselves.  We won't, and probably shouldn't go back to those levels of growth.

Obama has been clutching at straws, but what else could he do.  He's treading in totally uncharted territory.  He had conditions bordering on another Depression, without the calamity of Depression to be able to really take control of banks and things and demand reform the financial sector using emergency powers.

And the belief that the market will save us all is misplaced trust.  Business are in business to make money plain and simple, and given the short-lived nature of most CEO's appointments these days, they are inclined to make as much for themselves (and their descendants) as possible as quickly as possible. The result is a complete lack of "trickle down". 
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Mason
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« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2010, 12:11:21 PM »

"This is what change looks like"

but I like Newt's closing remark in his last newsletter better, "this is what failure looks like"
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kathyp
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« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2010, 12:14:53 PM »

so you basically wanted a European style social welfare state with an elected dictator.  i probably don't even have to list for you the example of how well that has gone for others in the past.

Quote
Obama has been clutching at straws, but what else could he do.  He's treading in totally uncharted territory.  He had conditions bordering on another Depression, without the calamity of Depression to be able to really take control of banks and things and demand reform the financial sector using emergency powers.

this is not uncharted territory.  unfortunately, obama has chosen to follow the example that have been proved not to work.  today he was still whining about the mess he was handed.  he has no clue because he is not a student of history.  he is a student of leftist ideals.  

Quote
The prosperity and endless growth expectations of 1990-2008 was unrealistic and unsustainable.  I think the markets are naturally deflating and resetting themselves.  We won't, and probably shouldn't go back to those levels of growth.

why and why not?  while i agree that markets reset, i do not agree that growth is unrealistic.  
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
bigbearomaha
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« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2010, 12:57:49 PM »

Quote
Can you site specific examples of democrats doing the same thing during previous administrations?

are you really going to pretend to be so ignorant as to say they don't?

Are you really going to imply that the history of the democrats has not been to play partisan politics?

 I know you aren't that ignorant and I hope you aren't so partisan as to be blinded.

but, ok, if you want specifics, gee, let's see...

How about when Clarence Thomas was nominated to the supreme court?  you have the audacity to say that wasn't obstructionist and partisan?

 I will only list one specific because  I wasn't even going to play your game of "if you can't name it, it doesn't exist".  All one need to do is turn on cspan any given day (or any news network for that matter) and watch the everyday back and forth of democrats and republicans at the ir "best".



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beek4018
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« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2010, 01:08:43 PM »

I never said growth was unrealistic, just growth as we knew it before.

The economy is "growing" right now and has been all along.  It's just 1-2% and not the 5-7% we'd been experiencing.

Obama is not a socialist.  That's just right wing talk radio bushwa.

And for the person who quoted or reveres ANYTHING coming out of Newt's mouth, I say let's not take the advice of a man who dumped his first wife when she was in the middle of cancer treatment.  Yeah, that's the real test of a man and a leader.


BIg Bear - I'm not saying that the dems. don't do it too.

I am saying that I won't waste my time arguing with somebody who can't site specific examples to back up their accusations. But I'll go ahead and do it this time in the hopes that you'll some day offer real concrete evidence of your claims.

As for the Clarence Thomas claim.  You're all wet.

The democrats opposed Thomas on legitimate judicial grounds.  Thy didn't just say no.  He had a proven claim of sexual harassment against him. Sexual harassment claims were a major issue for  courts at that time and it was something likely to come across their docket at some point.

Also, your example doesn't fit my criteria, that that person saying no MUST offer an alternative.  At that time the dems. weren't in power, they could not recommend an alternate candidate for justice that was the and remains the president's sole prerogative.
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bigbearomaha
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« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2010, 01:23:39 PM »

then you're playing games.

 First you admit that democrats do those things, but you refuse to acknowledge them unless they are spelled out for you so you can throw out the party notes on them.

play your party hack games with someone else.

Both parties engage in the same tactics. plain and simple. 

Big Bear
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kathyp
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« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2010, 01:26:38 PM »

growth is a result of innovation and productivity.  if you are saying that we can't be as innovative and productive as we have been in the past, i'd say that it depends....it depends on how obstructionist the government is.  if the government sees it as it's job to make things "fair", then i would agree with you.  if the government realizes that we are most innovative and productive when the government stays out of the free market and lets it work, then there is no limit.

obama is a marxist.  it is how he was raised by both his mother and grandparents, and it was marxists that were his mentors as he grew to manhood.  he also is a product of black liberation theology which is marxism with a black radical twist.  these are the people who revere che, castro, etc.

you are wrong about clarance thomas.  they opposed him because he was a conservative as they opposed bork.  thomas did not have a proved sexual harassment charge against him, he had a charge made against him.  

i can't think of anything that the republicans said not to, and did not offer alternative ideas.  if you are a consumer of the network news or the huff, you probably didn't hear them. + the dems blocked most of what the republicans wanted to present from ever reaching debate.  they also had many of their meetings in secret, behind locked doors, and excluded the republicans from those meetings.  makes presenting an alternative pretty hard, i'd think.

i wouldn't be so quick to point fingers at newt.  you guys had one do worse and you put him up as a presidential candidate.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2010, 01:31:34 PM »

Kathy,

"i wouldn't be so quick to point fingers at newt.  you guys had one do worse and you put him up as a presidential candidate."

Are you referring to John Edwards?

As bad as cheating on your wife is ( no question) you can't possibly believe that it's as bad as dumping your wife ( who you've sworn to stick with in all weather) in the midst of a life threatening illness.
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bigbearomaha
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« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2010, 02:43:41 PM »

oh yes, let's make it a competition to see which is the lesser of two evils.

problem is, they're both evils to begin with with.  Who cares which one is worse when we shouldn't have to put up with either.

That's the problem with partisan politics.

"vote for us, our scumbag is better than their scumbag"

sheesh.

Big Bear
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kathyp
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« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2010, 02:58:24 PM »

did you forget that Edwards wife has terminal cancer? 

it is typical liberal double standard that you apply.

bigbear has a point.  both are equally bad.  i would not argue that.  i do argue that your perceptions are flawed.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2010, 03:48:31 PM »

Ahh, yes, but Edwards didn't leave her. That's a critical detail and difference.

Details and facts are something most conservatives don't seem to have much time for if we are going to start throwing around liberal/conservative generalities.
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